Today I asked some high school kids what was significant about Dec 7, 1941 and got nothing but a blank stare. One of them asked if it was the start of the Civil War. When I said it had to do with WWII they asked who was "in it". I asked them if they knew where Pearl Harbor was and gain, blank stares. When I told them that Japan attacked America and killed over 3 thousand people they had no idea what I was talking about. One boy said, "I call [censored]". He said it had to be "[censored]" because his father drove a Japanese car. I then asked them who was Brad Pitt's first wife and every one knew the answer.
Pearl Harbor Day
- Thread starter OneEyeJack
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The kids don't realize how fast people forgive.The US bought German cars even after Adolph Hitler and his 3rd Reich ran roughshod,and we bought Japanese cars after Pearl Harbor and having to force us to develop the A Bomb.Heck,we would buy Russian cars and Chinese ones (Volvo now is),if they offered them here. Much like professional wrestling...we hate the heels when they backstab and act like bullies,but when they help the good guys or beg forgiveness,the fans cheer them on.
Sounds like something wrong with the school system. My sister is in high school and she knows what Pearl Harbor is.
Don't think you understand to realise DIFFERENT generations they didn't live it. It happens in every generations the older says to respect your past the younger says it needs to move forward. Aristotle said that in every generation the conflictment in views.
Perfect example was Japan when the younger generation took over. They never lived WW2 couldn't dwell on it, bring them down. They had neutral views didn't have the full impact. Japan went on the economic boom they needed to forget WW2 and move the country. The older generation was defeated they had to take over. The younger generation was very intelligent on international interactions. They couldn't dwell on the past but move forward.
Perfect example was Japan when the younger generation took over. They never lived WW2 couldn't dwell on it, bring them down. They had neutral views didn't have the full impact. Japan went on the economic boom they needed to forget WW2 and move the country. The older generation was defeated they had to take over. The younger generation was very intelligent on international interactions. They couldn't dwell on the past but move forward.
While not a historian, I think bombing Pearl Harbor was a mistake by Japan. While they did destroy a number of Navy ships what did they hope to accomplish? They succeeded in getting the USA involved in a war in the Pacific. We may have stayed out of it and just battled Germany if they had not bombed Pearl Harbor.
The USA learned never again to have many ships in one port at once and I believe that carriers are protected by cruiser ships when they are in port now.
The USA learned never again to have many ships in one port at once and I believe that carriers are protected by cruiser ships when they are in port now.
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Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Today I asked some high school kids what was significant about Dec 7, 1941 and got nothing but a blank stare. One of them asked if it was the start of the Civil War. When I said it had to do with WWII they asked who was "in it". I asked them if they knew where Pearl Harbor was and gain, blank stares. When I told them that Japan attacked America and killed over 3 thousand people they had no idea what I was talking about. One boy said, "I call [censored]". He said it had to be "[censored]" because his father drove a Japanese car. I then asked them who was Brad Pitt's first wife and every one knew the answer.
You just exposed the truth about our public school system. Don't even get me started on the "no child left behind" manure.
*Or the school lunches. I swear some of those kids sound like they are eating Russian prison food.
Today I asked some high school kids what was significant about Dec 7, 1941 and got nothing but a blank stare. One of them asked if it was the start of the Civil War. When I said it had to do with WWII they asked who was "in it". I asked them if they knew where Pearl Harbor was and gain, blank stares. When I told them that Japan attacked America and killed over 3 thousand people they had no idea what I was talking about. One boy said, "I call [censored]". He said it had to be "[censored]" because his father drove a Japanese car. I then asked them who was Brad Pitt's first wife and every one knew the answer.
You just exposed the truth about our public school system. Don't even get me started on the "no child left behind" manure.
*Or the school lunches. I swear some of those kids sound like they are eating Russian prison food.
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Maybe the kid was pulling your leg...of course he knew of PH didn't want to dwell on conflictment..
Some factors of "What did Japan hope to accomplish" has to do with U.S. policy at the time--of cutting off Japan's access to U.S. oil, because of their having attacked China and Manchuria in the mid to later 1930's. Japan's only other source of oil was primarily in the Dutch East Indies. Strategically, Japan had to take out the U.S. Navy so that we would not interfere with their plans to take what they wanted in S.E. Asia. Both the British and the Dutch presented little threat to their plans, as both of them were too busy with Germany.
As Americans we hear very little about the causes of the U.S./Japan war, concentrating mostly on their "unprovoked and dastardly attack" on Pearl Harbor. I don't know too many Americans that can wax eloquently on these causes, including myself! But there are/were causes that led up to Pearl Harbor even if we don't hear much of them.
Ultimately, Japan shouldn't have provoked the sleeping dogs of war!
As Americans we hear very little about the causes of the U.S./Japan war, concentrating mostly on their "unprovoked and dastardly attack" on Pearl Harbor. I don't know too many Americans that can wax eloquently on these causes, including myself! But there are/were causes that led up to Pearl Harbor even if we don't hear much of them.
Ultimately, Japan shouldn't have provoked the sleeping dogs of war!
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
Originally Posted By: joaks
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
Don't believe their ignorance.... Try this.
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
Don't believe their ignorance.... Try this.
Originally Posted By: joaks
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
I think you would be surprised. I don't think WWI & II are as big as they were to older generations. I'll be 30 in January and I remember of Pearl Harbor Day every year. Maybe it's because my grandfather served on the USS Intrepid during WWII or maybe it's because WWII was taught in more detail while I grew up.
I feel bad about yesterday because I didn't realize it was December 7, I tend to lose track of dates on the weekend.
Yesterday, December 7, 1941, a date that will live in infamy...
Kind of seems fitting to post about it today.
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
I think you would be surprised. I don't think WWI & II are as big as they were to older generations. I'll be 30 in January and I remember of Pearl Harbor Day every year. Maybe it's because my grandfather served on the USS Intrepid during WWII or maybe it's because WWII was taught in more detail while I grew up.
I feel bad about yesterday because I didn't realize it was December 7, I tend to lose track of dates on the weekend.
Yesterday, December 7, 1941, a date that will live in infamy...
Kind of seems fitting to post about it today.
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Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Originally Posted By: joaks
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
Don't believe their ignorance.... Try this.
I have heard of this, although the answers were disturbing we don't know how many people they asked. In fairness, to get so many ignorant people I hope they asked every single person on campus.
Originally Posted By: joaks
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
Don't believe their ignorance.... Try this.
I have heard of this, although the answers were disturbing we don't know how many people they asked. In fairness, to get so many ignorant people I hope they asked every single person on campus.
Originally Posted By: joaks
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Originally Posted By: joaks
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
Don't believe their ignorance.... Try this.
I have heard of this, although the answers were disturbing we don't know how many people they asked. In fairness, to get so many ignorant people I hope they asked every single person on campus.
The story behind the survey is that they showed the smartest, best informed students. They did not cut anyone out that had the answers. There were a few more of these video productions but they were not uploaded to YouTube because the person producing these videos though viewers would not believe them. She was of the opinion that this would damage her reputation.
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Originally Posted By: joaks
I suspect they were pulling your leg about not knowing about Pearl Harbor, although the date might not ring a bell. Either that or these are unusually poorly educated kids.
A short rant inspired by "saturnionvue": I am not sure about what the rest of you learned in history class, but what I learned lacked greatly in important detail. I study SE Asian history and culture as a hobby, mostly focusing on the 1920s to now and there is so much which was never, ever discussed in my high school classes. On the topic of Japan during WWII is how much the Japanese wanted to AVOID war with the U.S. The "good vs evil" style of instruction I received completely whitewashed real causes (more often economics rather than "evil" people, but not always) as well as all varieties of mistakes made by us.
For those with an interest in the topic, I recommend "The Rising Sun: The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Empire" by John Toland. It is the most complete reference on this topic I have found thus far.
Don't believe their ignorance.... Try this.
I have heard of this, although the answers were disturbing we don't know how many people they asked. In fairness, to get so many ignorant people I hope they asked every single person on campus.
The story behind the survey is that they showed the smartest, best informed students. They did not cut anyone out that had the answers. There were a few more of these video productions but they were not uploaded to YouTube because the person producing these videos though viewers would not believe them. She was of the opinion that this would damage her reputation.
It seems that Japan was a martial dominated society and felt(feels?)superior as a people who wanted control of (at least)the orient. We sought to check them by choking off their imports as Japan had few of her own natural resources. Japan's leadership felt Americans were without character and would 'fold' shortly after Japan's expected successful attacks/offensive. The whole world knew of the Rape of Nanking and other brutal actions in China as that invasion/war had been going on for some years. Pearl Harbor galvanized a divided America and the result was a hatred of Japanese, especially as word filtered out of the treatment and murders of our POWs. So, it was basically a 'war without quarter'. Both Germany and Japan were esentially defeated long before they ultimately surendered-barbaric leadership. Most Germans understand and know their history-not so much with the Japanese as very little of WW2 is taught/discussed.
I know who is Brad Pitt, he's a movie star. Now, if you ask me which movie he was in I only remember 1 movie , is it Ocean 11 or something like that ? His first or second wife ? who knows !
My experience living in Japan was those Japanese of my generation, born immediately after the end of WWII had no knowledge of the war. Nada. Couldn't name any serious fact about the war. Prime Ministers, strategic campaigns, etc.
I have Toland's book and it is very good. Regarding Pearl Harbor day, Prange's book is good.
When I was stationed on a Marine Corps Air Station in Japan decades ago, the Japanese Navy hosted a party for us every December 8th. Wives invited. Drink a little. Play party games etc. First year, I asked the secretary why Dec 8th? She said Pearl Harbor Day, duh. Then I realized the international date line makes Dec 8th Pearl Harbor day for them. Interestingly, no speeches or references to Pearl Harbor. Just a party for our friends. So much like Japan. Almost everything remains unspoken. All meaning is inferred. Took me a few embarrassments to come to terms with how to make progress in Japan.
I just counted 79 books on Japan on my shelf. Some favorites are two by Don Maloney. "It's Not All Raw Fish" and "Son of Raw Fish". They are humor, but ring so true for me.
I was fortunate to be in the yard at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th on two different occasions. I made sure to be standing near dry dock 1 both times at time of the attack. The steam plant blows a long whistle and then the national anthem comes over the PA system. I couldn't make it through without crying. I always made sure I was unaccompanied for that evolution.
Make no mistake going forward. It will be the USA and three great democracies standing in the way of China. That would be the Philippines, Republic of Korea and Japan. Without a doubt the Kingdom of Thailand will stand firm, but lack the military power and face the lost of King PUHMIPHON (BUHMIPOL) due to age.
My ideal scenario would be for China to turn on Russia and then for the USA to have enough nads to keep our military-industrial complex from dragging us into the fray. I won't live to see it, but one can hope. I would like for a generation or two of my family to not go to some God forsaken war.
I have Toland's book and it is very good. Regarding Pearl Harbor day, Prange's book is good.
When I was stationed on a Marine Corps Air Station in Japan decades ago, the Japanese Navy hosted a party for us every December 8th. Wives invited. Drink a little. Play party games etc. First year, I asked the secretary why Dec 8th? She said Pearl Harbor Day, duh. Then I realized the international date line makes Dec 8th Pearl Harbor day for them. Interestingly, no speeches or references to Pearl Harbor. Just a party for our friends. So much like Japan. Almost everything remains unspoken. All meaning is inferred. Took me a few embarrassments to come to terms with how to make progress in Japan.
I just counted 79 books on Japan on my shelf. Some favorites are two by Don Maloney. "It's Not All Raw Fish" and "Son of Raw Fish". They are humor, but ring so true for me.
I was fortunate to be in the yard at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7th on two different occasions. I made sure to be standing near dry dock 1 both times at time of the attack. The steam plant blows a long whistle and then the national anthem comes over the PA system. I couldn't make it through without crying. I always made sure I was unaccompanied for that evolution.
Make no mistake going forward. It will be the USA and three great democracies standing in the way of China. That would be the Philippines, Republic of Korea and Japan. Without a doubt the Kingdom of Thailand will stand firm, but lack the military power and face the lost of King PUHMIPHON (BUHMIPOL) due to age.
My ideal scenario would be for China to turn on Russia and then for the USA to have enough nads to keep our military-industrial complex from dragging us into the fray. I won't live to see it, but one can hope. I would like for a generation or two of my family to not go to some God forsaken war.
Originally Posted By: Donald
While not a historian, I think bombing Pearl Harbor was a mistake by Japan. While they did destroy a number of Navy ships what did they hope to accomplish? They succeeded in getting the USA involved in a war in the Pacific. We may have stayed out of it and just battled Germany if they had not bombed Pearl Harbor.
The USA learned never again to have many ships in one port at once and I believe that carriers are protected by cruiser ships when they are in port now.
Some of the Japanese high command saw it as a mistake even at the time. One, I believe, was later quoted as saying, "We have awakened a sleeping giant. . . ."
It's one of those grand examples of folly: action contrary to self-interest, and an action that was seen to be so at the time. From what I've read, if Japan had simply ignored the U.S. and gone on its merry empire-building way, FDR could probably not have energized our (then) isolationist nation to battle them or other members of the Axis. We probably would have issued denunciations galore of Japan's actions, but done nothing militarily. Remember, Japan's imperial actions were practically on the other side of the world; and the U.S. military in late 1941 would have found such a campaign difficult.
So, yes, the attack on Pearl was almost guaranteed to ensure what the Japanese didn't want -- industrial giant America entering the war.
While not a historian, I think bombing Pearl Harbor was a mistake by Japan. While they did destroy a number of Navy ships what did they hope to accomplish? They succeeded in getting the USA involved in a war in the Pacific. We may have stayed out of it and just battled Germany if they had not bombed Pearl Harbor.
The USA learned never again to have many ships in one port at once and I believe that carriers are protected by cruiser ships when they are in port now.
Some of the Japanese high command saw it as a mistake even at the time. One, I believe, was later quoted as saying, "We have awakened a sleeping giant. . . ."
It's one of those grand examples of folly: action contrary to self-interest, and an action that was seen to be so at the time. From what I've read, if Japan had simply ignored the U.S. and gone on its merry empire-building way, FDR could probably not have energized our (then) isolationist nation to battle them or other members of the Axis. We probably would have issued denunciations galore of Japan's actions, but done nothing militarily. Remember, Japan's imperial actions were practically on the other side of the world; and the U.S. military in late 1941 would have found such a campaign difficult.
So, yes, the attack on Pearl was almost guaranteed to ensure what the Japanese didn't want -- industrial giant America entering the war.
Originally Posted By: NHGUY
The kids don't realize how fast people forgive.The US bought German cars even after Adolph Hitler and his 3rd Reich ran roughshod,and we bought Japanese cars after Pearl Harbor and having to force us to develop the A Bomb.Heck,we would buy Russian cars and Chinese ones (Volvo now is),if they offered them here. Much like professional wrestling...we hate the heels when they backstab and act like bullies,but when they help the good guys or beg forgiveness,the fans cheer them on.
What does a car company have to do with the government policies at a time? Sort of like equating the people who happen to live somewhere with the government.
The kids don't realize how fast people forgive.The US bought German cars even after Adolph Hitler and his 3rd Reich ran roughshod,and we bought Japanese cars after Pearl Harbor and having to force us to develop the A Bomb.Heck,we would buy Russian cars and Chinese ones (Volvo now is),if they offered them here. Much like professional wrestling...we hate the heels when they backstab and act like bullies,but when they help the good guys or beg forgiveness,the fans cheer them on.
What does a car company have to do with the government policies at a time? Sort of like equating the people who happen to live somewhere with the government.
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