How does that let out Group III? Group III is the product of chemical reactions in the presence of catalysts under very severe conditions. The result is an essentially pure base oil with excellent properties.quote:
Originally posted by Al:
Well to me a "true" synthetic is made by synthesizing two or more compounds to produce a totally new compound. That lets out the Group III's to me.
Also I resent the trickery used in the marketing of Syntec.
BTW-I would feel this way even if this Group III Castrol Syntec outperfored Mobil I in every catagory. Buts thats just me
Well, no, I'd say they did it because they're the last OTC Group IV on the market, and in order to continue being that they need to keep coming up with fresh reasons to justify buying their oil vs. a hydrocracked version of synth. It's marketing vs. marketing. Add to that the fact that all of your Group III oils are guilty of essentially the same things you outline in point 2 above, at the expense of point 1 I would say, I really don't get what you're saying. In fact, it's the move to Group III led by Castrol that pretty much started the whole thing, no? Aren't they guilty of *exactly* what you're talking about in the quote above? At least Mobil didn't slide down into a completely different group when they reformulated to save costs -- and the Group III gang didn't even have the courtesy to pass along the cost to us. (Shocked.) Finally, to assert that something can't be improved is a little silly, to say the least. And don't they all say they're the best? Is Mobil 1 really the only company to be called on the carpet for that? I for one am not such a sucker that I actually get offended when a product claims to be the best and then, *gasp* comes out with a "new and improved" version. Betrayal! Uh, no ... marketing. Engines are different, driving styles are different, and oils are going to behave differently based on those and many other factors. No, I won't be surprised the day that Mobil 1 quietly makes the move to Group III to save some money, and I'm sure, like Castrol, they'll be telling us all that it's "better than ever."
There's been speculation on this site that German Castrol 0W-30 is a blend of Group III and esters and there's been further speculation that it outperforms M1. Not subject to speculation are the excellent results from UOAs on this forumulation. ExxonMobil may or may not ever use Group IIIs base stocks in Mobil 1, but the company is one of the largest Group III producers in the world. It has a HUGE refinery in Indonesia dedicated to Group III lube base stock production. Obviously, however the market decides, ExxonMobil is positioned to profit handsomely from both a supply as well as production-cost standpoint. Mobil's loss to Castrol in the National Advertising Division arbitration was a "paper" loss only for the company. They've been crying all the way to the bank ever since.
I just want to say, all of this group III vs. IV & V talk in this thread is due to somebody jumping the gun. Never did I or anybody imply that group III oils are or aren't synthetic oils. I simply asked if anybody could interpret whatever language that these links may be so I would know what the base oil was. I never intended this to turn into another group III vs. IV & V thread. This has been debated numerous times already, not only on here, but in other places with other people. We all have our opinions on group III oils and will not change them - most until they see proof in the form of extended OCI UOA's.
I never claimed that Mobil has in any way been damaged financially by Castrol's move to Group III. Mobil refines and sells oil, and Group III oil is ... well, oil. So no surprise that they refine, sell, and profit from the production of Group III oil. When it comes to Mobil 1, obviously, they feel that there is a benefit to staying with Group IV, at least for the time-being, even though everyone else has gone to Group III. Whether this is because of purists like those on this board who want nothing less than a Group IV oil, or whether there is an actual performance edge over Group III oils is a moot point: If they were hurting, they'd have made the switch a long time ago along with the rest of the OTC world. My point is a simple one: Group III oils shouldn't cost as much as Group IV. I won't pay Group IV prices for a Group III oil. And, I reiterate, there's no question in my mind that a Group III oil -- or for that matter a Group II oil -- can outperform a Group IV/V oil given the right engine/driving style/temperature combination. There's also no question that there are some excellent Group III oils out there. The point is, the whole big stink about Castrol and the Group III thing has less to do with performance and more to do with price. Give me a great Group III oil and charge me $2.50/qt. for it, and maybe we'll talk.
Well yes, that is highly speculative to say the least. You're welcome to your opinion, but it seems like you're making a fairly big leap of faith. I'm not certain I'd base my choice of oil on assumptions about how a company is spending their money on development. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Besides which, if your base oil provides, say, 70% of what you need, you only require your additive package to carry 30% of the load, so to speak. Consider the use of VI improvers, as one example. A high-quality Group IV or V oil already has inherently excellent VI characteristics: no need to beef it up so much with the additive package. Same can be said for pour-point. So while I agree that the base oil isn't everything, I disagree with the opposite assertion it seems like you're making: that the additive package is everything. We can sit here and speculate that a cheap, nasty Group I oil can be made great if it has a really, really good additive package, but until that's borne out in analysis (or at least in my personal experience), I'll pass. That said, Group III oils are fine oils indeed, as you've said. Let's just say I don't share your generosity when it comes to assumptions about the motives of those oil companies that produce cheaper Group III-based oils and charge Group IV prices.
