PAO and/or Esters based oils

[Primus]

Comparing to PAO, Esters provide:

Inferiour antirust property and higher metal corrosion
Lower hydrolytic and oxidative stability
Limited seal and paint compatibility

Such properties of esters based oils may offset all their numerous advantanges if to use the car only on streets: city and highway including that of German type. Apparently these negative aspects are even more critical in the countries with a cold climate like Canada, Russia, Northern Europe where negative temperatures during 5-6 months/year are not a surpise, and a non-perfect gas quality. Think the only solution to avoid negative consequences is probably to change the oil more frequently (max. 5000 km), but then this will affect a maintenance cost.

Would it be possible to find a compromise by making an own mixture of PAO and Esters oils, say 50-70 % Mobil or Chevron + 30-50 % Motul or RedLine ? Naturally it will change the original volume of this or that additive, but hardly lead to their clash. Any ideas ?

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by Primus:
Comparing to PAO, Esters provide:

Inferiour antirust property and higher metal corrosion
Lower hydrolytic and oxidative stability
Limited seal and paint compatibility

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There are many different esters used in motor oils, and you simply can't apply this list of properties to all of them. And for the newer "hi-tech" esters (like those produced by ExxonMobil and mentioned by Molakule), I don't think any item in this list applies.

Also, keep in mind that Redline just has MORE ester in it (40%-50%), but it is still primarily a PAO based oil.

 

[buster]

quote:

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Would it be possible to find a compromise by making an own mixture of PAO and Esters oils, say 50-70 % Mobil or Chevron + 30-50 % Motul or RedLine ? Naturally it will change the original volume of this or that additive, but hardly lead to their clash. Any ideas ?

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Not sure what you mean, but Mobil 1, Amsoil and Redline are all PAO + Ester mix. Mobil 1/ Amsoil are about 85% PAO with 15% ester while RL is 65% PAO + 35% ester. %'s could be off but that is what has been given on here. Mobil 1 might even be more PAO then 85%, due to the recent thread.

 

[Primus]

Well, let's exclude RL, if it has 40-50 % of esters, and consider only Motul 300V being, probably, the most available esters oil. As for PAO, we don't know exact M1 composition, so I would consider it as PAO. In fact, it can be any available PAO oil or the oil we know it contains at least 80 % PAO and 15-20 % Esters or 15-20 % grp III.

Would we improve some properties of the first oil by adding 30 % of esters with Motul 300V, or would we get some desired balance of "good" and "bad" properties with their 50/50 mixture ?

 

[Last_Z]

G-Man,
I found out a couple days ago that RL was not all esters....I almost fainted. I always believed it was nothing but esters and that the RL guys did not want anything to do with PAO. I guess that subject has never come up until now.....or at least, not very often.....or maybe I'm just a dummy!

ps; you don't have to answer to the latter.

 

[harrydog]

I've always known that Redline was not 100% ester based, but I never knew the exact percentage. Are some of you saying you know the actual percentages of polyolester vs PAO's in Redline? Where did you find this information?

 

[boxcartommie22]

i just asked that question today to redline and dave said there is noooo pao in their oils 100% esters

 

[boxcartommie22]

i just mix 4qts redline 10w30 and qt and a half of delvac 1 5w40

 

[Last_Z]

Anyone know of a dealer here in SA,TX? I would like some RL5W-40 mixed with some 15W-50 for my next OCI.

I love experimenting!

 

[harrydog]

I was told by Redline (Roy Howell) that their oil was mostly polyolester with some PAO's. He wouldn't tell me the exact percentages. This was back in 1995, but I have no reason to believe their oil is not still mostly polyolester based.
By the way, back then, Roy told me that polyolesters cost $15 - $20 per gallon while PAO's cost $4 - $6 per gallon. You can see why Redline costs more than most PAO based synthetics.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

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Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
i just asked that question today to redline and dave said there is noooo pao in their oils 100% esters

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Baloney.

 

[Road Rage]

quote:

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Originally posted by harrydog:
I was told by Redline (Roy Howell) that their oil was mostly polyolester with some PAO's. He wouldn't tell me the exact percentages. This was back in 1995, but I have no reason to believe their oil is not still mostly polyolester based.
By the way, back then, Roy told me that polyolesters cost $15 - $20 per gallon while PAO's cost $4 - $6 per gallon. You can see why Redline costs more than most PAO based synthetics.

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I heard the same thing from the same guy, and was an RL dealer since 1982 until a few years ago. I thought they had a small amount of PAO to offset the seal swell.

 

[Primus]

quote:

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Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
i just mix 4qts redline 10w30 and qt and a half of delvac 1 5w40

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May be you have tried both oils separately, then you can probably say whether or not you have noticed a difference with the mixture ?

Last two changes I added 10-15 % of Motul 300V 10W-40 just in hope to increase stickiness and lubricity. Naturally this is a gamble, so I would like to get more provals of potential properties improvement and may be to increase 300V share till 40-50 %. Subjectively I like more how the engine works with mixture then when I have used each oil in pure state. Believe Motul 300V is a great oil, but it was becoming dark 2 times quicker then any other oil I have used. The engine is very clean, so it would be quite doubtful to attribute a.m. effect to a good cleaning property of esters and therefore a wash out of some sludge or sediments. Over this, like Yannis already noticed in one of our previous posts on Motul 300V, there are certain issues with idling. According to Yannis in addition to a power loss the engine was struggling to maintain a proper idling speed. I have tried 3 grades: 15W-50, 10W-40 and 5W-40 and found a power loss only with 5W-40, but there was really something strange with idling: regular short drops (1-2 seconds) in rpm evry 2-3 minutes.

 

[Titanium_Alloy]

Kind of a late reply, but anyway...

I have to agree with Primus that in a sense Group V (polyol ester in particular) has numerous disadvantages compared to PAO. PAO seems like an all around oil which can be used in extreme cold, heat, humidity, and for extended drain intervals. Both PAO and POE have about the same pour point. Otherwise similarity ends there. I think that POE oils like Redline are very good for a race car, but for a regular street driven vehicle - probably not a good thing. Oil, as Primus mentioned, have to be changed more often I would say every 8000-10000 miles compared to PAO's reserve of up to 20000 miles (that is if both oils have similar level additives). Protection, based on UOA results, is rather questionable. In some cars Redline does very good, in others - just OK, in yet other cars - very badly. Hit or miss I must say. On the other hand Mobil 1 shows very good results in almost every car mostly outperforming Redline or showing at least as good wear numbers. Based just on facts like those and whole bunch of other factors I see no real reason to use Redline in a street driven car or even occasional weekend racer. Why would someone want to pay $7-10/quart when you can by M1 for $4/quart? I think that Redline is mostly hyping out about their oils and wants us to see them as a super lubricant. I think that this is not completely fair. Redline seems to make some pretty good products but they are just another synthetic oils, nothing more. Well... maybe psychological placebo (i.e. disinformation) comes free in every bottle.

Primus,
Motul makes their esters from coconut oil. While I would use it to fry my fries, I would have doubts about their performance in car engine. I think that Motul's performance would be somewhat comparable to Redline. I would think (can't tell for sure) that Redline might perform a bit better compared to Motul.

code:

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Base Stock Relative Performance Chart



Petroleum Esters Synthesized Hydrocarbons

Base

______________________________________________________________

Mineral oil Dibasic Acid Polyol PAO Alkyl

______________________________________________________________

Compatibility 5.0 3.0 2.0 5.0 5.0

with motor oil

Viscosity 2.0 4.0 3.0 3.0 2.0

Index

Pour point 1.0 3.0 3.0 3.0 3.0

Oxidation 5.0 1.5 1.0 3.0 4.0

(average of four tests)

Volatility 2.0 5.0 5.0 4.0 3.0

Affect 5.0 4.0 3.0 5.0 5.0

on Paint

Seal Swelling 4.0 3.0 1.0 5.0 4.0

Water 5.0 2.0 2.0 5.0 5.0

Stability

Rust 5.0 2.0 2.0 5.0 5.0

Prevention

Additive 5.0 2.5 2.0 3.0 5.0

compatibility

__________________________________________________________

Totals 39.0 30.0 24.0 41.0 41.0

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[MolaKule]

quote:

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Inferiour antirust property and higher metal corrosion.
Lower hydrolytic and oxidative stability
Limited seal and paint compatibility

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Most of the listing above should have been in context with a comparison to other oils. I could take a "selective" set of individual disadvantages for mineral oils and make them look llike crap, but that wouldn't be scientifically fair nor valid.

I can take any oil, be it mineral or synthetic, and list the disadvantages, but that's why we have additives and why we don't run straight base oils in our engines.

BTW, most of the Motul oils are veiled copies or variations on Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetics.

As regarding Redline, the only thing I have seen them state is that their oils are 100% synthetic and they use the same type of esters used in jet engines, which is DPE polyol esters and TMP polyol esters. This does not mean that their base oils are 100% esters.

[ April 03, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[dropitby]

What Buster said and what I read: Commons synthetics used for engine lubrication today are Polyalphaolefin (like Mobil 1) or Dibasic Organic Esters (like AMSOIL). Makes me wonder if bothe these oils use PAO & Esters just like no MOLY in AMSOIL.

 

[buster]

quote:

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What Buster said and what I read: Commons synthetics used for engine lubrication today are Polyalphaolefin (like Mobil 1) or Dibasic Organic Esters (like AMSOIL). Makes me wonder if bothe these oils use PAO & Esters just like no MOLY in AMSOIL.

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Huh?

Mobil 1/Amsoil are both PAO based with a small amount of POE. Redline is also POE + PAO only with a much larger % of POE. You have to have some amount of PAO for seal compatibility. What makes Redline so shear stable are the higher amounts of POE. Makes it ideal for racing under extreme heat. Viscosity won't budge.