Oxidation converted to protection?

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951
Location
Loveland, Colorado
We just got a new High Performance service station in town which sells RedLine products, among other things. ("100 Octane Street Legal Racing Fuel!") (For all that street legal racing I do...) So anyway, I picked up a "Technical Information" pamphlet on their motor oils, & right near the end of the Wear Prevention section they've got this sentence: "Red Line contains unique oxidation inhibitors which are converted to antiwear additives as they absorb oxidizers, constantly replenishing the antiwear chemistry." Now, I'm not a chemistry whiz, but I take this to mean that some ingredient in the oil will use the results of oil oxidation as a catalyst to create a new, protective compound. This means my questions are: 1) Am I reading this right? 2) Does this actually happen? 3) Does this happen in other oils, too? Thanks for straightening me out. Now, about that 100 Octane racing fuel at our altitude of 5300 feet... [Edited 02.Dec.02 for spelling.] [ December 02, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Greg Netzner ]
 
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47,643
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Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
I cannot speak on the exact chemistry nor do I claim to know the formulation of Redline. I was thinking the main AW agent in Redline is Moly (in an organic complex perhaps) - so yes these can be both oxidation inhibitors and antiwear agents - Redline has shown very high Mo levels in analyses' when levels in the 700-800 ppm range are not needed for AW, so maybe they are really after the Oxd. prevention....
 

MolaKule

Staff member
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21,597
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Iowegia - USA
The anti-wear additive ZDDP and the anti-wear/EP additive moly are both very good anti-oxidants, as well as anti-corrosion additves.
 
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1,933
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Oklahoma
(Now, I'm now a chemistry whiz, but I take this to mean that some ingredient in the oil will use the results of oil oxidation as a catalyst to create a new, protective compound) I was always lead to believe motor oil can oxidize from exposure to air as in a process of combining substances with oxygen generally taken from the air and that all petropeum products are subject to oxidation. Now I come to this forum and see that oxidation of oil is caused by heat as well? I don't believe school to be out on Moly being a "good" anti-oxident imo because it takes sulpher as a bonding agent to get it to plate from what I read " not to include the type Schaeffers uses though " . Now the Redline. It does seem to accelerate Oxidation through analysis so I believe it to have a catalyst that accelerates this without itself undergoing a signifigant chemical change or change in volume during the process. A catalyst can accelerate or retard a process. I believe this catalyst in Redline to be Polyol Ester. Using it will oxidize any oil it seems. If you look at the engine oil analysis that uses Auto-RX as a maintenance dose of a few ounces they all are oxidized to varying degrees and RX has Polyol Esters in it. Is this bad ? No if not left in too long in my opinion.
 

Al

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19,163
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Elizabethtown, Pa
Dragboat: I am no chemistry major as well. I do know that oil oxidation is also hastened by-water,dirt,brass/copper contamination, agitation. All other factors being equal-just heat alone: oxidation is doubled for every 15 degrees (approx) above 150F for non-synthetic oils. Pardon me if I over-simplified things. [Smile]
 
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5,785
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Dixie
Dragboat, I think the elevated oxidation rates you sometimes see with AutoRX are due to it cleaning up sludge deposits and putting them into suspension, so they show up in the analysis. Sludge is basically oil that has reacted with oxygen to form an insoluble polymer - like tiny bits of plastic. Oxidation is a reaction of the oil with oxygen - higher heat levels merely accelerate this process. You can do an accelerated oxidation bench test on oil by heating it up very high and putting it inside a pressure bomb. I think they call this the RBOT, "rotary bomb oxidation test" or TFOUT, "thin film oxygen uptake test"? - I'm sure Terry would remember the particlular one. I've never heard a good explanation of the process Redline is referring to .... TooSlick
 

MolaKule

Staff member
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Iowegia - USA
"I was always lead to believe motor oil can oxidize from exposure to air as in a process of combining substances with oxygen generally taken from the air and that all petropeum products are subject to oxidation. Now I come to this forum and see that oxidation of oil is caused by heat as well?" Heat combined with oxygen in the oil (whether dino or synthetic) will cause oxidation of the oil; the oil breaks down due to the attack of peroxides, which are formed during the oxidation process. Synthetics are more "resistant" (but not immune) to oxidation than are petroleum bases. "I don't believe school to be out on Moly being a "good" anti-oxident imo because it takes sulpher as a bonding agent to get it to plate from what I read " not to include the type Schaeffers uses though " . Now the Redline. It does seem to accelerate Oxidation through analysis so I believe it to have a catalyst that accelerates this without itself undergoing a signifigant chemical change or change in volume during the process. A catalyst can accelerate or retard a process." A catalyst accelerates or helps a reaction transform one chemical or set of chemicals into another. A chemical that retards or stops a reaction is called an "inhibitor." I do believe that ZDDp, Moly DTC and other metallic DTC's are good anti-oxidants as evident from various technical papers and from personal testing. "I believe this catalyst in Redline to be Polyol Ester. Using it will oxidize any oil it seems. If you look at the engine oil analysis that uses Auto-RX as a maintenance dose of a few ounces they all are oxidized to varying degrees and RX has Polyol Esters in it. Is this bad? No if not left in too long in my opinion." Polyol ester will not accelerate oxidation. In fact, they retard oxidation. The esters used in Auto-RX are simply very "polar" esters that cling and encapsulate sludge and carbonaceous materials and float them into the oil.
 

Eiron

Thread starter
Messages
951
Location
Loveland, Colorado
Okay, but what I hear you all saying is that the same compounds which provide anti-wear are also providing anti-oxidation. I understand if one compound does dual-duty. But what the RedLine text says is that the oxidation inhibitors are CONVERTED to antiwear additives as they absorb oxidizers, so I'm confused about one thing turning into another. [I dont know]
 

MolaKule

Staff member
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21,597
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Iowegia - USA
That is what is being said and is actually occuring. As the Anti-Oxidation chemicals (AO) attack the peroxides, the AO is being converted to AW/EP films. Another example of "Multifunctional" additives, additives that accomplish more than one duty. [ December 02, 2002, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
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5,069
Location
Saratoga, NY
I’m not sure we have absolutely concluded that an abundance of molybdenum in Red Line causes premature oxidation. My first oil analysis of Red Line 10W30 showed the oil to have a TBN of 4.5 after 5 months and 7,200 (relatively hard) miles. I can only assume that the good folks at Blackstone Labs correctly calibrated their equipment when processing this sample. This is not fabulous … but I did have a coolant leak during this time and that could have contributed to the oxidation which did occur. Terry did an analysis on a used sample of Red Line and posted it in the used oil section. It was still at 12 or so. I don’t remember the results exactly, but it was an encouraging result for sure. As for what Red Line is trying to say, I have no idea. The only time I have heard of corrosives being converted into wear inhibitors is the active ingredient in the snake oil additive “Prolong,” a chlorinated something or other. This first oxidizes the metal and the oxide forms a very slippery compound. Of course, this happens AFTER the product has caused some wear on purpose. [Roll Eyes] As for what Red Line is talking about with regard to that “conversion” statement, maybe someone can call Dave Granquist and ask for clarification. [I dont know] . I can only think of early Christian missionaries converting “heathens” in different parts of the world … with many of those conversions being somewhat suspect as well. [Wink] --- Bror Jace
 
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1,933
Location
Oklahoma
If you take a look at some of the Redline analysis I think you will see this Ox I am speaking of. If the polyol ester is not causing this what is ? The high amount of Mo or the sulpher that bonds the Mo? Or something not easily seen through analysis? The Polyol Ester in the RX is used for a lubricant per a previous post and is 15-20 percent of the total package. Certainly a Polyol Ester is polar to metals and I agree [Smile]
 

Patman

Staff member
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21,989
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Oakville, Ontario
I think Terry once mentioned that certain oils like Redline can actually trick the oil analysis equipment, and will show crazy oxidation levels that aren't even possible (such as 300%) sometimes.
 
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