Oxidation and Nitration?

[Jelly]

Being a lowly college student, and considering classes haven't started yet, I have plenty of time to start learning all about oil!

My question is this: I've been looking at several UOA's, and the one's by Dyson Analysis show oxidation and nitration numbers, as well as a percentage.

Could one of you guys here please explain to me what these numbers mean?

Also, why don't the tests from the other analysis places show these numbers?

 

[Al]

Well, basically Nitration Products are formed from the combustion process. In the excess of oxygen, these products form acidic products and lead to the oxidation of oils. Sorry-don't know what the scale is based on-but it is I believe percent of allowable. 75% is max..

Oxidation on the other hand occurrs when oxygen combines with the petroleum (oil). It is accelerated by heat, light, metal products, water, acids, or other contaminents. Again it is relative with 75% being max allowable. Oxidation numbers will be significantly higher than Nitration maybe as much as 2:1 .

Hopefully one of the gurus will help out here.

 

[userfriendly]

Jelly;
Have you found any un-bias trends in the UOAs?
I don't put a lot of weight on other people's UOA results.
Look at it this way:
You just purchased a drum of brand X 10W30 and do 20 oil changes on 20 identical vehicles.
These vehicles are operated by 20 different drivers, making wholesale deliveries in the same city.
After 8,000 miles UOAs show 20 different results.
After 3 more oil changes and 60 more UOAs, you see a trend starting to appear and you can almost tell which UOA belongs to which one of the 20 drivers.
On this discussion board, you may have 200 people driving 200 different vehicles in all different types of conditions sending in UOA reports from several different labs.
If this was a scientific experiment to determine the best motor oil, which results could you trust as being accurate and worthy?

 

[Jelly]

quote:

---

Originally posted by userfriendly:
Jelly;
Have you found any un-bias trends in the UOAs?
I don't put a lot of weight on other people's UOA results.
Look at it this way:
You just purchased a drum of brand X 10W30 and do 20 oil changes on 20 identical vehicles.
These vehicles are operated by 20 different drivers, making wholesale deliveries in the same city.
After 8,000 miles UOAs show 20 different results.
After 3 more oil changes and 60 more UOAs, you see a trend starting to appear and you can almost tell which UOA belongs to which one of the 20 drivers.
On this discussion board, you may have 200 people driving 200 different vehicles in all different types of conditions sending in UOA reports from several different labs.
If this was a scientific experiment to determine the best motor oil, which results could you trust as being accurate and worthy?

---

I haven't found any trends in anaylsis results, but I haven't been around here long enough either.

Give it a little time...a little learning time, and I'm sure I'll start seeing similarities with individuals analysis results....that's when I actually understand anaylsis to a higher degree and what each element tested represents.

 

[widman]

I think you have 2000 users with 4000 cars and 100 oils........
I've done over 1000 analisis and trends can be found, more on a per user or per company basis. Then you use the analisis outside the range for that user to pinpoint problems with the engine or maintenance.
Oxidation and Nitration are more closely watched in Natural Gas engines, and 20% it the limit to avoid engine damage.

 

[userfriendly]

Widman;
Are you saying that UOAs are specific to "that" user, and attempting to apply the findings or trends and transferring them to another application is mook?
For exzample (German)...I'm currantly using brand X 10w30 in my brand ABC automobile.
Me thinkz that brand Y 15W40 engine oil may better suit my needs.
I then look up member # 45678's posted UOA who has tested brand Y 15W40 in his/her brand DEFG vehicle.
Widman, can I apply member #45678's UOA to determine if brand Y 15W40 is better than my brand X 10W30 for my application or should I do my own UOAs and find out for myself?

 

[MolaKule]

Userfriendly,

Yes, trend your own engine and oil. Use the UOA's as general guidelines for oil selection.

Al,

Good job.

 

[userfriendly]

Molakule;
That nitration comment got me thinkin'.
A product of combustion (somethin' like NOx in smog production?) and common to gasious fueled engines.
LPG and CNG both?
The reason of my interest is because every LPG engine I have ever built has consumed some engine oil.
Some of those engines were broken-in on gasoline then converted to LPG and started using about one litre every 2500 miles on average there after.
It is a well known fact around here, at least at one time, that engines re-built intended for LPG fueled vehicles needed special attention to top ring position and end-gap.
The reason was assumed to be that LPG ran the pistons hotter. (bad race-pit English, I know)
Sometimes the learning curve was expensive.
Some machine shops used a performance piston with a very high top ring position, and found out the hard way.
Reading the instructions might have helped a lot, but have you ever delt with a machine shop owner that has been in business for 40 years, and knows everything there is to know about everything?
Or does that describe most of them?
Back to the nitration question...
Do you or Al think that nitration is the reason for LPG engines' oil consumption?
Here is an industrial example of this:
We on the railroad have several one ton vans, Chev and Ford that are used to dead-head train crews.
Those vans put on about 8-12,000 miles a month, and some of them have over one million miles on the original engines. SBC 350s and SBF 351Ws.
The oil consumption has been flat for the last several years at around one litre every 2-3,000 miles.
With my own LPG vehicles, I re-built the engines with cast hyperutectic FM pistons at .0025".
A little on the loose side, but not enough to cause cold engine piston slap.
It did not matter which brand, synthetic or not, 20W50, 15w50, sae 40, or junk-mart 5W30, the engine oil consumption remained about the same.
The railroad crew vans get their oil changed about once every 3 or 4 months, by the drivers.
I usually poke through the box in the back to see what they use, and the oil brands and types are not exotics nor are the filters.
Whatdaya think?