It has come to my notice by reading over here that the Toyota and other oem 0w-20 oils have a much higher moly content than found in open market. Why is that the case?
Ow-20 and high moly
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Moly is good at reducing friction but it's expensive. So oils that are made for fuel economy and are premium priced are more likely to have it in their add pack.
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what are some that have it that are readily available?
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
Does this mean my case of Toyota 0W-20 SM is increasing in value?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
The differance between a daily driver and a race engine?
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
The differance between a daily driver and a race engine?
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
There is alot more boundary friction when racing an engine. Mobil is also marketing the promise to "maximize power output by reducing internal friction"
To get back to the original question. The formulation depends on its application. There are different types of Mo based FMs and though we don't know what type is being used, treat rates depend on type and target temperature when FM will be activated. Most synthetic formulations use a combination of an organic type FM with a Mo based FM (most use "trinuclear"). With treat rates of the trimer type of Mo FM, usually 70 ppm is all that is needed to get effective protection/friction modification around 90C and up while the organic FM will cover the rest of the range
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
There is alot more boundary friction when racing an engine. Mobil is also marketing the promise to "maximize power output by reducing internal friction"
To get back to the original question. The formulation depends on its application. There are different types of Mo based FMs and though we don't know what type is being used, treat rates depend on type and target temperature when FM will be activated. Most synthetic formulations use a combination of an organic type FM with a Mo based FM (most use "trinuclear"). With treat rates of the trimer type of Mo FM, usually 70 ppm is all that is needed to get effective protection/friction modification around 90C and up while the organic FM will cover the rest of the range
Which 0W-20 oils with moly are available at the auto store?
The new Mazda USA high moly 0W-20 has 675 ppm of organic moly. It's available at your local Mazda dealer.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
Excellent question!
Less moly could be Toyota cost cutting.
Originally Posted By: ottotheclown
Check the SN group might be less moly. Suppose to be a better kind needing less moly in SN.
Maybe, or less is just less.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
Excellent question!
Less moly could be Toyota cost cutting.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
My guess is that they haven't changed the formula yet and are sticking with old dimer type for those oils.
Mobil is supposed to use the best tri-nuclear moly version in it's oils, but if less is more why does the Mobil 1 race oils contain a whopping 1,600 ppm of moly?
My guess is that they haven't changed the formula yet and are sticking with old dimer type for those oils.
They are trying to offset potential wear with the thin oils by loading it with moly.
High moly was in order to increase the fuel efficiency of 0W-20 even more so that Japanese cars would have their unbeatable fuel economy, not only helped by the high VI and low HTHS viscosity of 0W-20 but also the low friction of synthetic base oil and even lower friction thanks to high moly.
However, after Infineum (an ExxonMobil - Shell joint venture) additive company's patented trinuclear moly became famous, Japanese folks also learned that 50 - 100 ppm of trinuclear organic moly does a better job in friction reduction and antiwear, antioxidation protection than 1000 ppm of traditional organic moly. Therefore, apparently, Toyota 0W-20 SN made by ExxonMobil uses trinuclear organic moly now.
The tests show that 50 - 100 ppm trinuclear moly when used along with standard amounts of ZDDP greatly reduces wear and friction. Therefore, it also reduces the requirement for high ZDDP.
Also note that trinuclear moly is used in Mobil Delvac 1300 Super HDEO as well: "Trimer additive technology is a patented additive technology that imparts outstanding wear performance, effective oxidation resistance and improved frictional properties while contributing little to the overall ash content enabling Mobil Delvac 1300 Super to deliver performance beyond the boundaries of industry requirements of API CJ-4."
Trinuclear moly is probably the second most effective additive in engine oil, only second to ZDDP. However, the two need to be used together anyway, which makes it one of the two most important additives in the oil.
However, after Infineum (an ExxonMobil - Shell joint venture) additive company's patented trinuclear moly became famous, Japanese folks also learned that 50 - 100 ppm of trinuclear organic moly does a better job in friction reduction and antiwear, antioxidation protection than 1000 ppm of traditional organic moly. Therefore, apparently, Toyota 0W-20 SN made by ExxonMobil uses trinuclear organic moly now.
The tests show that 50 - 100 ppm trinuclear moly when used along with standard amounts of ZDDP greatly reduces wear and friction. Therefore, it also reduces the requirement for high ZDDP.
Also note that trinuclear moly is used in Mobil Delvac 1300 Super HDEO as well: "Trimer additive technology is a patented additive technology that imparts outstanding wear performance, effective oxidation resistance and improved frictional properties while contributing little to the overall ash content enabling Mobil Delvac 1300 Super to deliver performance beyond the boundaries of industry requirements of API CJ-4."
Trinuclear moly is probably the second most effective additive in engine oil, only second to ZDDP. However, the two need to be used together anyway, which makes it one of the two most important additives in the oil.
Originally Posted By: 2002 Maxima SE
Which 0W-20 oils with moly are available at the auto store?
I'd like to know also. Local Toyota wants $9 qt, Honda wants $6 for thier blend. No Mazda dealers near me, so I'm looking to auto stores or Amsoil where I have PC account.
Which 0W-20 oils with moly are available at the auto store?
I'd like to know also. Local Toyota wants $9 qt, Honda wants $6 for thier blend. No Mazda dealers near me, so I'm looking to auto stores or Amsoil where I have PC account.
Originally Posted By: tc1446
Originally Posted By: 2002 Maxima SE
Which 0W-20 oils with moly are available at the auto store?
I'd like to know also. Local Toyota wants $9 qt, Honda wants $6 for thier blend. No Mazda dealers near me, so I'm looking to auto stores or Amsoil where I have PC account.
If you can't get the Toyota 0W-20 SN at a reasonable price, Mobil 1 0W-20 SN probably has the trinuclear moly. It also has strong initial TBN and TBN retention and therefore should be excellent for extended OCIs, probably more so than Toyota 0W-20 SN.
Originally Posted By: 2002 Maxima SE
Which 0W-20 oils with moly are available at the auto store?
I'd like to know also. Local Toyota wants $9 qt, Honda wants $6 for thier blend. No Mazda dealers near me, so I'm looking to auto stores or Amsoil where I have PC account.
If you can't get the Toyota 0W-20 SN at a reasonable price, Mobil 1 0W-20 SN probably has the trinuclear moly. It also has strong initial TBN and TBN retention and therefore should be excellent for extended OCIs, probably more so than Toyota 0W-20 SN.
Not more so thatn the Mazda oil. It's at 9 TBN
Originally Posted By: asharris7
Not more so thatn the Mazda oil. It's at 9 TBN
Mobil 1 0W-20 SN has an initial TBN of 8.8 and magnesium for TBN retention. Toyota 0W-20 SN has an initial TBN of only 6.8 but it seems to retain it OK, despite having no magnesium. I will do UOA with TBN when I reach 5k.
Not more so thatn the Mazda oil. It's at 9 TBN
Mobil 1 0W-20 SN has an initial TBN of 8.8 and magnesium for TBN retention. Toyota 0W-20 SN has an initial TBN of only 6.8 but it seems to retain it OK, despite having no magnesium. I will do UOA with TBN when I reach 5k.
I thought TBN retention was due to high calcium?
Originally Posted By: asharris7
I thought TBN retention was due to high calcium?
Calcium and magnesium are both used as detergents. The sum of the amounts of calcium and magnesium is related to the initial TBN. Magnesium is said to increase the TBN retention (meaning TBN decreases from its initial value more slowly over the OCI) but could potentially be corrosive (therefore could increase wear); for this reason, many oils avoid it altogether. Nevertheless, the art and science of finding the right detergent combination out of many is complicated and oils all go under many tests before final blends are marketed. Not all detergent combinations are compatible with all types of antiwear and friction-modifier additives either, requiring even more detergent/antiwear/friction-modifier combinations to test for the blenders.
I thought TBN retention was due to high calcium?
Calcium and magnesium are both used as detergents. The sum of the amounts of calcium and magnesium is related to the initial TBN. Magnesium is said to increase the TBN retention (meaning TBN decreases from its initial value more slowly over the OCI) but could potentially be corrosive (therefore could increase wear); for this reason, many oils avoid it altogether. Nevertheless, the art and science of finding the right detergent combination out of many is complicated and oils all go under many tests before final blends are marketed. Not all detergent combinations are compatible with all types of antiwear and friction-modifier additives either, requiring even more detergent/antiwear/friction-modifier combinations to test for the blenders.
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