You have to admire the Tesla people downplaying these videos. The scientific method is only brought up when Tesla looks bad. If Tesla had gone further than the Porsche it would be hailed as the greatest triumph ever seen by mankind.
Out of Spec Reviews: EV “10% Challenge”
- Thread starter E365
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Sure. The Scientific Method applies to every test or is is not apples to apples, right. Maybe @JHZR2 is a Tesla person? The Taycan is an incredible car and is the #1 selling Porsche. I would consider one, but I would cry if it were scratched and I just don't have room for it.
By the way, if you think I am a Tesla person you are right. Along with a bunch of other cars; look at my list.
I was intrugued by the numbers. The Porsche Taycan range is between 206 and 246, depending on confuguration. The Model Y Long Range is 330. For conversation, let's say the test was valid. There must be something about the battery / drivetrain of the Taycan that works very well in this scenario. From a technology standpoint, this is really interesting...
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The methods applied in these videos don't adhere to the scientific method, yet they are both informative and entertaining. Published specifications only go so far. These videos provide real world experience under known conditions. I look forward to seeing more, no matter how flawed the methods may be.
We discussed this prior and I think you hit at already at 40% or something like that?
Scientific method doesn't really apply to charging an EV, this is real world experience which is much more relatable than a car running on a treadmill or plugging into a charging station under optimal conditions. I appreciate the real world experiences vs EPA and car manufacturer best case scenario experiences.
This is, in essence, a "best case" test. Best possible charge rate, cutting it short before any significant current reduction takes place. I like it.
It is a test that highlights my level of impatience.
Any way you slice it, 15 minutes gets you 1.2 to 1.75 hours of highway trip motoring.
It is a test that highlights my level of impatience.
Any way you slice it, 15 minutes gets you 1.2 to 1.75 hours of highway trip motoring.
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JHZR2
Staff member
What difference does that make? Does the 250kW supercharger seriously only work at that rate at less than 40%?!?
We done know what the controls are for allowing full rate supercharging. Yet another knob that could be turned for getting range, or not. Which is why this sort of a test is silly.
JHZR2
Staff member
Yet the “real world” is running on an assumption of sustained full rate charging, and is extremely contingent on hvac, driving style, etc.
SOC makes a notable difference in max charge rate.
Notice the V3 curve and look at average power at a 40% SOC - the taper is fairly steep.
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I decided this guy was having all the fun and decided to my own real world, highly unscientific experiment.
We have a home in Petaluma, CA. This is part of the Wine Country north of SF. The house is 90 miles from our Los Gatos home.
Mainly 85 to 280 freeway, through the City, over the bridge to Marin (Hi Robin Williams) and then it gets real countrified. Petaluma (a Miwok Indian word) is a tranquil city in Sonoma County.
We generally drive our GS or Tundra. Use 200 miles as a general distance. The GS uses premium and gets mid 20's mpg. So it costs about $40 round trip if I buy at Costco. Of course, I have to drive 15 miles each way to get to Costco. But I don't have to stop for gas if I have 1/2 tank or so. This is our usual vehicle. Very comfortable; great driving car. It eats up the miles.
I take the Tundta if I have to carry tools, expect to get dirty working, or just feel like it as I love this truck. But at 16 to 17 mpg, it's thirsty. So 11 or 12 gallons at $4.60 comes out to about $51 round trip. Again, no stops for gas.
Add 30 to 40 cents (or more) per gallon for non Costco gas.
We took the 2018 Model 3 Mid Range, which is rated at 260 miles with 65 kWh battery. I only charge at home; with solar it is basically free. We left arounf 7:30 AM; the starting range displayed 205. We flew up to the City, 75 to 85 (or faster) most of the way. SF is always gonna be slow. Over the bridge and up to Petaluma. Range showed 91 miles left. It is amazing how accurate the scheduler is on time and range. Less than 2 hours to get there. Petaluma does not have Supercharger locations like the South Bay. At a newer shopping center there is a 20 stall SuperCharger. Very nice; you can back in or drive straight in. A handicap stall. There were a few Teslas charging. We plugged in; the display ramped to 374 mph. I should have preconditioned (heated) the battery. But I don't know how... We went for a walk through the shopping center and came back. Sat in the car to watch; it slowed to 217 MPH. I figured I'd stop at $10. It went from 90 to 170 in maybe 15 minutes. Drove home, slow over the GG and The City and flew home down 280. Got home with 65 miles range remaining and plugged in. Will take about 5 hours to 90% charge.
I believe this is how most Tesla owners would do a trip like this. I think the display said 20 minutes left to fill the tank when we stopped Supercharging at $10. I had plenty to get home. The methodology is different; stay off Superchargers because they cost more. But man are they fast! Get home and do your charging when the car is not in use and the cost is low.
Starting charging; 35 minutes to full. 374 mph baby!
Our car is the 1st one on the right. The Pacific is just over the Sonoma Mountain range in the background. Beautuful low 70's day.
We have a home in Petaluma, CA. This is part of the Wine Country north of SF. The house is 90 miles from our Los Gatos home.
Mainly 85 to 280 freeway, through the City, over the bridge to Marin (Hi Robin Williams) and then it gets real countrified. Petaluma (a Miwok Indian word) is a tranquil city in Sonoma County.
We generally drive our GS or Tundra. Use 200 miles as a general distance. The GS uses premium and gets mid 20's mpg. So it costs about $40 round trip if I buy at Costco. Of course, I have to drive 15 miles each way to get to Costco. But I don't have to stop for gas if I have 1/2 tank or so. This is our usual vehicle. Very comfortable; great driving car. It eats up the miles.
I take the Tundta if I have to carry tools, expect to get dirty working, or just feel like it as I love this truck. But at 16 to 17 mpg, it's thirsty. So 11 or 12 gallons at $4.60 comes out to about $51 round trip. Again, no stops for gas.
Add 30 to 40 cents (or more) per gallon for non Costco gas.
We took the 2018 Model 3 Mid Range, which is rated at 260 miles with 65 kWh battery. I only charge at home; with solar it is basically free. We left arounf 7:30 AM; the starting range displayed 205. We flew up to the City, 75 to 85 (or faster) most of the way. SF is always gonna be slow. Over the bridge and up to Petaluma. Range showed 91 miles left. It is amazing how accurate the scheduler is on time and range. Less than 2 hours to get there. Petaluma does not have Supercharger locations like the South Bay. At a newer shopping center there is a 20 stall SuperCharger. Very nice; you can back in or drive straight in. A handicap stall. There were a few Teslas charging. We plugged in; the display ramped to 374 mph. I should have preconditioned (heated) the battery. But I don't know how... We went for a walk through the shopping center and came back. Sat in the car to watch; it slowed to 217 MPH. I figured I'd stop at $10. It went from 90 to 170 in maybe 15 minutes. Drove home, slow over the GG and The City and flew home down 280. Got home with 65 miles range remaining and plugged in. Will take about 5 hours to 90% charge.
I believe this is how most Tesla owners would do a trip like this. I think the display said 20 minutes left to fill the tank when we stopped Supercharging at $10. I had plenty to get home. The methodology is different; stay off Superchargers because they cost more. But man are they fast! Get home and do your charging when the car is not in use and the cost is low.
Starting charging; 35 minutes to full. 374 mph baby!
Our car is the 1st one on the right. The Pacific is just over the Sonoma Mountain range in the background. Beautuful low 70's day.
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Here's the spec's. You can see the difference between SF stop and go (green) and flying down the freewat at 80+ most of the way.
Charge it to full and you might be able to make it round trip from home, if you go slow.
That could be faster than the total time driving to, and charging at a charger. But even so, 15 mins is enough for a trip like that.
We learned this on our Miami trips, 200 miles round trip in a 90KWh model S. Going slow made the trip just barely possible.
What we also learned is that my shortest trip is 280 miles one way. And the Model 3 needs to stop at the 160 mile mark as that's where the charger is. And needs to charge at the destination and on the way back.
My goal was not to optimize the trip; it was more of just a get in and go with whatever charge I had. Real world. I don't always start our ICE vehicles full. If I charged to 100% the night before, I probably would not have needed to charge today. We drive around town once we get there as well. Again, this is a no-hurry Saturday... But no one drives 70 mph on interstate 280; ain't gonna happen. The experiment was, "What's it really like?"
We stopped for Starbucks on the way home. What I could have done instead of charging earlier, was drive to Novato, about 10 miles south of Petaluma on the way home and got our Chai there while the car was charging. That would have made the charging stop virtually nothing time wise.
If you include the need to drive to Costco to save 40 cents per gallon, the Tesla is a time saver. But that's just my given situation.
Let's say I needed to get gas in Petaluma. Costco is 8+ miles away, and on a weekend day you know I would be waiting in line. Petaluma gas is over $5 even for rag.
A little more south, Marin and beyond, and there are Superchargers everywhere.
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Basically it seems with 15 mins of a better charge you can manage another 1-1.5 of driving at that speed(80mph)
I could care less about variables people dwell on here.
I could care less about variables people dwell on here.
The variables determine if the above statement is true.
You can get 1-1.5 hours of driving at 80 MPH out of a 15 minute charge IF your battery is at or below about 10% when you start.
My results were different. See the graphs above.
Our car was about 30%, or 90 mile range, when I charged for 15 minutes. I flew down 280 and 85 for almost 2 hours and got home with 60 miles. Of course no one flies through SF without an aircraft...
@andrew_j what Dave is pointing out is, when I plugged in the charging speed was 374 mph; if I were at 10% it would have been even faster. 15 minutes later, with a gain of 80 miles, it was down to 217 mph and dropping. Another 20 minutes and I would be full, up another 50 miles to about 220.
All I needed was enought to get home, where charging cost is minimal. But I can tell you, the Superchargers are incredible. There are even faster ones, as well. Depending on your use case, a Model 3 can be a great (and fun) vehicle.
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Toyota bZ4x: 42.2 miles
Compared to 98 miles for the cheaper Tesla Model Y
Even if you could swallow the mile and performance differences which are stark,
The difference you just cant swallow is the charging performance.
This things just unbelievably bad. I almost cant believe its this bad.
Everyone thought it was going to be a snap to match the market leaders performance and they are failing spectacularly.
Bjorn got a software update that improved the car tremendously from something completely unworkable to something better than a bolt, but not as good as a Kona with a 64KWH battery.
About on par with a 10 year olds model S with 200K on it which is better than new etron 50 with 800Volts.
As long as you are careful not to gate it due to heat.
That said this particular software kept the battery on the hot side.
This car appears to only be able to put 1 KW against battery cooling - way light comparatively.
About on par with a 10 year olds model S with 200K on it which is better than new etron 50 with 800Volts.
As long as you are careful not to gate it due to heat.
That said this particular software kept the battery on the hot side.
This car appears to only be able to put 1 KW against battery cooling - way light comparatively.
Toyota bZ4x: 42.2 miles
Compared to 98 miles for the cheaper Tesla Model Y
THe bZ4x costs more than the Y? I didn't know that. Sounds like a hard sell.
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