Opinions: Toyota Sludge Monster and Saturn DOHC

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First off, thank you to everyone on this board. I find it highly informative and of great value when trying to get as much mileage out of my cars without spending too much time---and cutting through all the bunk. After reading here for a while, I've found the spark to change oil myself once again after spending $50 for "synthetic" oil on my 93 SL2, only to have it start consuming it at a rate of 1qt per 250 miles. Found out it wasn't truly synthetic. NEVER will I go to a Valvoline oil change shop again! I'll do it myself, at least I know exactly what's going on with the most important part of the engine: the oil! First Issue: I own a 99 Toyota Sienna with the infamous sludge-prone V6. We purchased this vehicle with 19K from a local dealer (we knew the previous owner), mostly city miles and it was maintained properly. After we hit 33K, I started reading about the sludge problem. So I went to the local Valvoline oil change place, did the 10 minute sludge treatment, and changed the oil with the standard 5W-30, then I found this web site a couple days later. Most advice was quite sound: don't do those instant desludge procedures--take the gunk out slowly with Auto-Rx and other products. So far, no leaks or other detrimental effects and the oil looks quite clean evean after 2000 miles after the oil change. Since we've moved to a more rural area, almost all miles are highway miles since about the 27K mark. After reading many of the posts on this engine, I've decided to use Chevron Supreme and and the OEM Toyota filter every 3000 miles. Q: Would the Chevron Supreme in the 10W-30 weight be okay for this specific engine during the summertime in TN heat or should I use the factory recommended 5W-30? On to my other car, 1996 Saturn SL2 DOHC model. I bought this used with 81K. (This is my 4th saturn). The engine needs some cleaning, but doesn't consume any notice any oil consumption. I changed the oil when I got it at a local Havoline oil change shop. Then just yesterday, I changed it again since with only 1200 miles on it-it looked overly dark for that few miles on it since the last change. Q: I've never used anything but 5W-30 in my Saturns, now that I no longer live in in the frozen tundra of Chicago, can Chevron Supreme 10W-30 be safely used rather than the factory-spec 5W-30? Supertech Filters okay? Thanks, ToyotaNSaturn Spring Hill, TN
 

J

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Hi, I would recommend good quality synthetics for both. My old Saturn (which I traded in on a Saab) burned 1/4 quart every 3,000 miles. Other than that, it was perfect in every way. I just needed a little more car. Anyhow, I would recommend Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40 for both Saturn and Toyota. It will serve your needs well. The clearances increase as your engines age. So, a 5w-40 will serve your needs well. Also, the detergent package of Delvac 1 will give your Saturn DOHC engine the cleaning it needs and will also clean up the sludge churned up by the Toyota V6 (don't get me started) [Mad] After Delvac 1 has nicely cleaned up both the Saturn and the Toyota, you can switch both over to Mobil 1 10W-30. You can then run oil change interval of 10,000 miles without problems on the Saturn (watch for oil consumption) and you can use oil change interval of 5,000 miles on the Toyota. Synthetics pour much better than dino oil. So, you would be able to use 10W oil in Chicago or in any other area below the arctic circle. [Cheers!] jae
 
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ToyotaNSaturn, you bring up something that has happened to me! I actually caught some people at a lube shop who were trying to put 10W-40 weight oil into my car, instead of the Mobil 1 that I had bought! I had a funny feeling and walked into the service area, even though customers were not supposed to be there. There were the employees, standing around my car, one of them getting ready to open up a bottle of 10W40 weight oil! The Mobil 1 I had bought was still in a bag sitting on the floor a considerable distance away. I could tell that they were getting ready to cheat me! To top it all off, my car was not even supposed to use 10W-40-it was supposed to use 5W-30 with 10W-30 also allowed in warmer weather. There is no garantee that if a person buys a synthetic motor oil change, that they will actually get synthetic oil! You also say that you own a Saturn. I also own a Saturn. I don't know how Saturns compare with Toyotas when it comes to sludge problems (some Toyota engines have apparently been prone to sludge build-up, although Toyota denies this). I always change my oil at least every 3000 miles, but I have used Auto-RX and there was no question that there had been sludge in the engine. I highly recommend Auto-RX. Even if a person does not have a problem with sludge in the engine, you can use 3 oz. each oil change to keep an engine clean. Auto-RX is one of the few products I have bought that I am convinced actually works!
 

ToyotaNSaturn

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quote:
Originally posted by J: Hi, I would recommend good quality synthetics for both. My old Saturn (which I traded in on a Saab) burned 1/4 quart every 3,000 miles. Other than that, it was perfect in every way. I just needed a little more car. Anyhow, I would recommend Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40 for both Saturn and Toyota. It will serve your needs well. The clearances increase as your engines age. So, a 5w-40 will serve your needs well. Also, the detergent package of Delvac 1 will give your Saturn DOHC engine the cleaning it needs and will also clean up the sludge churned up by the Toyota V6 (don't get me started) [Cheers!] jae
I'd like to eventually move to synthetics. But for now, the cost and the risks involved with the Toyota sludge, and my terrible experience with Valvoline's "synthetic" oil being consumed at a horrid rate, I'll stick with the dinos until things stabilize. Is Delvac expensive? 10,000 mile change interval sounds awfully tempting! 5,000 miles on the Toyota? That must be some good oil considering the track record of this engine! Judging from your reply, I take it you've been around the block with Toyota on the sludge issue. Honestly, if it wasn't for this web site, I would have sold the van already! Thanks, Mike
 
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You may wish to check out the Used Oil Analysis section. There is an excellent Sienna analysis result using Redline 5W-30 oil...Redline is a polyol-ester synthetic costing about $7/quart. In my 2002 Sienna, I use Chevron Supreme 10W-30, with 2,000-mile-or-so changes; and 5W-30 in the Winter, with about 1500-mile changes. On long trips, I'll substitute Mobil-1 10W-30.
 

ToyotaNSaturn

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Originally posted by Mystic: ToyotaNSaturn, you bring up something that has happened to me! I actually caught some people at a lube shop who were trying to put 10W-40 weight oil into my car, instead of the Mobil 1 that I had bought! I had a funny feeling and walked into the service area, even though customers were not supposed to be there. There were the employees, standing around my car, one of them getting ready to open up a bottle of 10W40 weight oil! The Mobil 1 I had bought was still in a bag sitting on the floor a considerable distance away. I could tell that they were getting ready to cheat me! To top it all off, my car was not even supposed to use 10W-40-it was supposed to use 5W-30 with 10W-30 also allowed in warmer weather. There is no garantee that if a person buys a synthetic motor oil change, that they will actually get synthetic oil! You also say that you own a Saturn. I also own a Saturn. I don't know how Saturns compare with Toyotas when it comes to sludge problems (some Toyota engines have apparently been prone to sludge build-up, although Toyota denies this). I always change my oil at least every 3000 miles, but I have used Auto-RX and there was no question that there had been sludge in the engine. I highly recommend Auto-RX. Even if a person does not have a problem with sludge in the engine, you can use 3 oz. each oil change to keep an engine clean. Auto-RX is one of the few products I have bought that I am convinced actually works!
Sounds like you caught them just in time before you truly got ripped off. I felt cheated after I walked in to the local Auto Zone to top off the oil, and found it was $2.38 a quart. I was under the impression that "synthetic" oil was $4+ per quart. I was really ripped off. I won't be making that mistake again! On the positive side, the engine made much less noise on the highway and started easier in the winter compared to dino oils. In the end, it wasn't worth the headache, but I have learned a lot in the process. [Off Topic!] Funny thing is, I used to work at a Lincoln-Mercury dealer where the owner gave bulk oil for free to employees on their cars. I just paid for my filters, about $5, per oil change--every 1500 miles the oil and filter were tossed. That was the first 120K or so on my 1991 SL. I never had a problem with that engine. I've come full circle by returning to my "doing it yourself" roots. I'll be ordering the Auto-RX kit shortly as I have 2 problem-children cars that can use the TLC! [Smile] Mike
 
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Mystic, it's stories such as yours which prevent me from allowing shops do routine maintenance on my car. [Roll Eyes] If you do it yourself, you can take the $50 you wasted on that over-hyped Valvoline phoney spooj and spend it on Red Line oil. Here's a Toyota Sienna owner who used Red Line in that sludge-prone beast of his: http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000340#000000 You won't be able to get any better than that! [Big Grin] As for your Saturn, the 10W30 should work better in the summer heat. Cold starts aren't an issue and the 10W30 is more stable than the 5W30. --- Bror Jace
 

ToyotaNSaturn

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quote:
Originally posted by Pete: You may wish to check out the Used Oil Analysis section. There is an excellent Sienna analysis result using Redline 5W-30 oil...Redline is a polyol-ester synthetic costing about $7/quart. In my 2002 Sienna, I use Chevron Supreme 10W-30, with 2,000-mile-or-so changes; and 5W-30 in the Winter, with about 1500-mile changes. On long trips, I'll substitute Mobil-1 10W-30.
Thanks for all the replies! I thought about changing the Sienna at 2000 miles, but thought that might be too soon. I guess it's better to be safe than sorry with this engine. Other than the frequent oil changes, it's a real nice van. The new ones are even nicer, but will they have the same sludge issues? Mike
 

J

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quote:
Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn: and my terrible experience with Valvoline's "synthetic" oil being consumed at a horrid rate, I'll stick with the dinos until things stabilize. Is Delvac expensive? 10,000 mile change interval sounds awfully tempting! 5,000 miles on the Toyota? That must be some good oil considering the track record of this engine! Judging from your reply, I take it you've been around the block with Toyota on the sludge issue.
Hi, Delvac has to be bought in bulk (about 4 gallons' worth), but that should be two oil changes for the two cars. The oil is $5/quart, which is about the same as any other high quality oil. Delvac is dual rated for diesel and gasoline engines, and HT/HS requirement of ACEA E5 is identical to that of ACEA A3. So basically, you can't go wrong with Delvac. Are you sure that the quickie lube place used a synthetic oil? Valvoline "synthetic" is not an oil which is mentioned often on this board. If you go with Mobil 1, Amsoil or Bob's oil, you'll do fine. Redline and Motul are top shelf and expensive options. Flash-point of high quality synthetics is 470 degrees Fahrenheit. If you manage to burn four quarts of Delvac 1 or Mobil 1 10W-30 in 1,000 miles, you have some serious problems. Are you sure they didn't fill your sump with water and tell you they filled with "synthetic" oil? You do not have to worry about high quality synthetics burning like whatever the heck they put in your sump. By the way, nothing will destroy Mobil 1 10W-30 in 5,000 miles, not even Toyota V6. [Cheers!] Jae
 
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Speaking of Jiffy-Lube horror stories: I walk across the lot Saturday night at work and see a guys' Sentra gushing oil.He goes out to find the oil drain plug gone.Had a Jiffy -Lube special a week ago.He got a plug today and oil.Hope he goes back and gives em what for! [Dummy!] Thank GOD I do my own changes. RichR
 

ToyotaNSaturn

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Originally posted by J: Flash-point of high quality synthetics is 470 degrees Fahrenheit. If you manage to burn four quarts of Delvac 1 or Mobil 1 10W-30 in 1,000 miles, you have some serious problems. Are you sure they didn't fill your sump with water and tell you they filled with "synthetic" oil? [Cheers!] Jae
I watched them pump it from the bulk synthetic bin. Problem is, it's the Durablend garbarge, not the true, full synth type. I don't believe it was dino since the motor was much quieter than before even if they switched it behind my back. Thanks for your replies--it's put some confidence back into synthetics in Saturns for me.
 
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ToyotaNSaturn You didn't expect to get just one answer here, did you? Your thoughts about 10W-30 are OK. It will serve you very well. If your Saturn doesn't burn oil, it doesn't need an Auto-Rx or Neutra treatment, although there might be a benefit. Can you see into the valve cover area on your Toyota by looking down the oil fill? Or maybe have a mechanic remove a valve cover, of just use one of the cleaners mentioned above prophylactically. Tim Mills will sell you two bottles of Neutra for (I think) $7 + postage; put one oz. per quart in your crankcase, one oz. per gallon in your gas tank (& fill it), drive 300-500 miles, and change your oil. No worries. You can also get Schaeffer #703 10W-30 oil from him and extend your oil changes to 5000 or 7500 miles. Some engines do show increased oil consumption for the first one or two oil changes after changing to synthetics. I've seen guesses at the reason, and I've also seen the consumption settle back down to almost nothing. Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40 is a superb oil, a full true synthetic dual rated for diesel and gasoline engines. It will work very well for you, as will the Schaeffer, as will the Chevron Supreme at 4k-5k oil drain intervals. Ken
 
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Ken2, how do I get in touch with Tim Mills? I have done two treatments of Auto-RX but I was thinking about using the Neutra to be sure the engine is clean. I was also thinking about adding Shaeffer's #132 to Chevron motor oil.
 

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quote:
Originally posted by Mystic: Ken2, how do I get in touch with Tim Mills?
Scroll up to the upper left hand corner of this screen right now, and you'll see Tim Mill's smiling face, along with his phone number, 1-800-737-1747
 

ToyotaNSaturn

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Originally posted by Ken2: ToyotaNSaturn You didn't expect to get just one answer here, did you? Your thoughts about 10W-30 are OK. It will serve you very well. If your Saturn doesn't burn oil, it doesn't need an Auto-Rx or Neutra treatment, although there might be a benefit. Can you see into the valve cover area on your Toyota by looking down the oil fill? Or maybe have a mechanic remove a valve cover, of just use one of the cleaners mentioned above prophylactically. Tim Mills will sell you two bottles of Neutra for (I think) $7 + postage; put one oz. per quart in your crankcase, one oz. per gallon in your gas tank (& fill it), drive 300-500 miles, and change your oil. No worries. You can also get Schaeffer #703 10W-30 oil from him and extend your oil changes to 5000 or 7500 miles. Some engines do show increased oil consumption for the first one or two oil changes after changing to synthetics. I've seen guesses at the reason, and I've also seen the consumption settle back down to almost nothing. Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40 is a superb oil, a full true synthetic dual rated for diesel and gasoline engines. It will work very well for you, as will the Schaeffer, as will the Chevron Supreme at 4k-5k oil drain intervals. Ken
Ken, I didn't know what to expect, this was my first post here. I'm thankful for so much solid advice so quickly. I ended up purchasing the Neutra since it was much cheaper than Auto-Rx. I need to treat both cars in tandem and the Auto-Rx gets pricey real quick. Once these engines are cleaned I'll give synthetic oil another look.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by J:
quote:
Originally posted by ToyotaNSaturn:
and my terrible experience with Valvoline's "synthetic" oil being consumed at a horrid rate, I'll stick with the dinos until things stabilize. Is Delvac expensive? 10,000 mile change interval sounds awfully tempting! 5,000 miles on the Toyota? That must be some good oil considering the track record of this engine! Judging from your reply, I take it you've been around the block with Toyota on the sludge issue. Are you sure that the quickie lube place used a synthetic oil? Valvoline "synthetic" is not an oil which is mentioned often on this board. If you go with Mobil 1, Amsoil or Bob's oil, you'll do fine. Redline and Motul are top shelf and expensive options. Flash-point of high quality synthetics is 470 degrees Fahrenheit. If you manage to burn four quarts of Delvac 1 or Mobil 1 10W-30 in 1,000 miles, you have some serious problems. Are you sure they didn't fill your sump with water and tell you they filled with "synthetic" oil? You do not have to worry about high quality synthetics burning like whatever the heck they put in your sump. By the way, nothing will destroy Mobil 1 10W-30 in 5,000 miles, not even Toyota V6. [Cheers!] Jae

Re: 470 degrees Fahrenheit. Are you implying Mobil 1 flash point is anywhere near 470 deg F? I had to reply because I know it is not. That's why I do not use Mobil 1. Once upon a time, I considered changing from mineral dino oil to synthetic. Checking the numbers, I was less than impressed with synthetics. On average, they were maybe 10 percent better than mineral (if that), but in excess of 100 percent more expensive. I can come in again in a little while and post the flash point/pour point of Mobil 1 if you like. It is not much better than the mineral Castrol I use, and have been using for decades. If you want something that's better than dinosaur oil, try Schaeffer or Amsoil. The other syn's are a waste of time, and not worthy of the name "synthetic."
 

Patman

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Try running 8000 miles with most conventional 5w30s though and see how bad the used oil analysis reports look. Mobil 1 5w30 can do 8k and still protect very well, as we've seen in Brian's long term synthetic test in his 2002 Z28.
 
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Originally posted by Patman: Try running 8000 miles with most conventional 5w30s though and see how bad the used oil analysis reports look. Mobil 1 5w30 can do 8k and still protect very well, as we've seen in Brian's long term synthetic test in his 2002 Z28.
Re:"...still protect very well..." That may or may not be true, but it still sounds like the engine is chewing itself up to pieces when cold-starting in the morning. Re: "8000 miles..." I would not even think of doing 8000 miles with Mobil 1. I might think of doing 8000 miles with Schaeffer and Amsoil, though. I have personally seen engines self-destruct when people pour in fancy oils. (to me, fancy is anything that is not dinosaur oil) Mobil 1 is merely the best advertised oil and the best promoted oil. That does not make it the best performing oil.
 

J

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quote:
Originally posted by Flimflam: Re: 470 degrees Fahrenheit. Are you implying Mobil 1 flash point is anywhere near 470 deg F? I had to reply because I know it is not. That's why I do not use Mobil 1. Once upon a time, I considered changing from mineral dino oil to synthetic. Checking the numbers, I was less than impressed with synthetics. On average, they were maybe 10 percent better than mineral (if that), but in excess of 100 percent more expensive. I can come in again in a little while and post the flash point/pour point of Mobil 1 if you like. It is not much better than the mineral Castrol I use, and have been using for decades. If you want something that's better than dinosaur oil, try Schaeffer or Amsoil. The other syn's are a waste of time, and not worthy of the name "synthetic."
Hi, Let me respond to your ... I don't know what you're using, but let me counter with facts. Following is link to Mobil 1 site. Just conver Celcius to Fahrenheit. Mobil 1 0W-40 thanks Jae
 
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