Opening A Can of Worms, Beating a Dead Dinosaur...er Horse, etc etc

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I realize this is an issue that has been debated again and again...and just when you all had me pretty much locked in to an opinion on when to change oil [yes, I do very much respect the things you all have to say], I stumbled across a European website that contained the following (yes, I understand about UOAs)...One of the authors of an article on oil change intervals had this to say..."I am an engineer for a big OEM and I feel that for best engine life, if you drive the car hard or in a short hop driving cycle, you should change the oil [using synthetic] every 3000 miles." He goes on to say that the extended intervals in Europe are the result of pressure on OEMs to reduce the cost of ownership and to "green up" their business. He goes on to say flat out that "In my own oil testing dino oil breaks down and loses its viscosity after about 1500 miles which is manifested by loss of hot idle oil pressure" and that Motul and Mobil 1 are good for 3000 miles before breakdown occurs. (The only oils mentioned at the site are Mobil 1, Motul and Castrol Formula SLX [0W-30]. He goes on to cite that he has dissembled many engines and the difference BTW 3000 mile and 7-8000 mile intervals "is night and day." "The longer interval car will have a layer of sludge on all surfaces. The 3000 mile car will have only a brownish discoloration to the parts. Another author says that he EXPECTS 180,000 - 200,000 miles out of engine and transmission and that this is the way to get it (he didn't talk about changing tranny fluid. There is a lot of other good stuff including a very detailed breakdown of driving style, ambient temperatures and the intervals that should be used. While I see some holes in the arguments made, overall this website made some compelling points. I offer this not so much to reignite debate but to let you all have some info to include in your grey computers, although I wonder how well a chain of UOAs for an engine and an actual teardown of the same engine correlate. Regards...
 
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I would like to hear the responce to this from all the vehicle owners out there that have been changing their oil at extended drains of 6k or more and have great results and tons of miles on them. Do you think we will ever reach an agreement as to what is a logical all around good oil change interval? Just to many factors out there.
 

pscholte

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That's what I can't lock into my own thinking...so many opinions and yet (probably) so many autos with 100+K miles on them...brings up the question does it REALLY matter...but I want to believe it does, 'cause then what would we all talk about?????? [I dont know]
 
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KY
quote:
Originally posted by Rat407: I would like to hear the responce to this from all the vehicle owners out there that have been changing their oil at extended drains of 6k or more and have great results and tons of miles on them.
I currently have 82,xxx miles on my 1999 VW Jetta VR6, which isn't really "tons," but its oil changes were performed at 5, 10, 16, 20,000 miles, then every 10,000 miles thereafter. I did my first UOA recently after a 10,000 mile drain of Mobil 1, and it gave excellent results. Oil consumption is less than 1 quart per 10,000 miles. I may even try one of the highly regarded dino oils in this application.
 
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Rancho Cucamonga, CA
quote:
Originally posted by GROUCHO MARX: An oil change is relatively cheap insurance at a shortened interval. This doesn't mean you can't extend it, but again, it's cheap insurance. [I dont know]
I agree, and for many of us here, it's an enjoyable process to boot! [Wink] I know everyone says if an oil turns dark brown, it's doing its job, but I can't get it in me to leave dark brown oil in there any longer than needed. This generally equates to 3000 mi intervals for me (I notice it get pretty dark by 3k). To extend an interval beyond that doesn't sit well with my conscience. Now, if I could see that the oil was staying clean on the dipstick beyond 3k, I'd rethink my drain intervals...
 
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Greece
quote:
Originally posted by pscholte: One of the authors of an article on oil change intervals had this to say..."I am an engineer for a big OEM and I feel that for best engine life, if you drive the car hard or in a short hop driving cycle, you should change the oil [using synthetic] every 3000 miles."
I would agree with the above gentleman (Mike Kojima ). The rule i followed so far is 3000m on dino and 4000m with a synthetic(if you drive hard). If you want to extend the interval make sure that the engine (spark cables-plugs ,coolant etc )is in perfect condition something amsoil forgets to mention [No no]
 

pscholte

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Thanks, everyone for the inputs so far... segfault, since one of the guys I cited made a big deal out of oil breakdown and associated sludge accumulation, I'd really like to know how your Mobil 1 scored in viscosity, TBN and factors related to engine cleanliness. Thanks. Paul
 

sam

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balto, md
I tend to agree that the 3k oil changes are cheap insurance and that they are not really needed in most vehicles. The only problem with extended drain is when there is a problem starting. Since most of us here dont do a UOA at every oil change and alot of us only put minimum milage on some of our babies, the only way to see a problem or get damaging contaminates out is by changing the oil. If your car is a daily driver and you commute long distances to work every day, I wouldnt think changing the oil every month or 2 because you hit 3k would be cheap, but if you have a second vehicle like my truck that only gets 5k a year, changing the oil every 4 months sure makes me feel better and its not very expensive either.
 
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Duvall WA - Pacific NW USA
Yannis =>
quote:
If you want to extend the interval make sure that the engine (spark cables-plugs ,coolant etc )is in perfect condition something amsoil forgets to mention
Sage words, and yes actually Amsoil doesn't specifically list every component needing to be in perfect working condition, but they do use words such as "regular component inspection" and "good mechanical condition". They also clearly state "Change intervals may vary according to the severity of individual application". Amsoil relies heavily, as does this site, on lubricant sampling and analysis. I never blindly recommend extended OCI's, nor do the other two Amsoil reps here. Caution and "easing up to it" are the way to go. Lastly, contrary to popular belief, Amsoil has many different drain intervals, depending on oil type and use. Most are NOT 25K or 35K. All are time contained to 6 months or 12 months.
 

pscholte

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quote:
Originally posted by Pablo: They also clearly state "Change intervals may vary according to the severity of individual application". Amsoil relies heavily, as does this site, on lubricant sampling and analysis. I never blindly recommend extended OCI's, nor do the other two Amsoil reps here. Caution and "easing up to it" are the way to go. [/QB]
Pablo, I really like your expression, "Caution and 'easing up to it' are the way to go." I think that is one of the real keys...along with sampling and analysis...thanks for your input. Regards, Pablo...er...Paul [Big Grin]
 
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SC
quote:
Originally posted by pscholte: One of the authors of an article on oil change intervals had this to say..."I am an engineer for a big OEM ...
This guy is so full of crap. I tend to disregard someone who puts up his "credentials" as the reason to take what he's about to say at face value. But beyond this, most of what this guy says about used oil is just flat out false, and we've got any number of UOAs posted on this forum to prove it.
 
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Keep in mind that this study was qualified with "driven hard or short trip" type thing. Most of us don't drive our vehicles hard. Fast ..sure..but do we bang every gear getting on the autobahn ..for the six mile stretch that we're going to be on it? Those of us who do short driving ..tend to use time weighted changes. It still has lots of variables in the mix here. There is no one "truth" here.
 

Al

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Elizabethtown, Pa
I have never seen any information confirming what this gentleman says. And everyone wants to call themselves an "engineer". I'm not saying he is wrong. But I give far more credability to sources I have seen. Mobil has published numerous papers where they have driven vehicles 7.5K miles and 15K miles, Aunt Minnie tests, Delvac 1 tests and engines have been torn down examined and found engines to be very little worn and very clean. There is enough evidence out there to state many Amsoil customers have experienced this type of result with extended drain intervals. As far as "his own tests shows that Mobil 1 breaks down in 3K miles" What is his definition of "breaks down" all oil including synthetic "breaks down"-to what extent 1%, 3%, 10%, .001%. Sorry I (and we) have not just driven into town on a turnip truck. We have seen many, many UOA's. He can save his spiel for "Joe Sixpacs" of the world. Who is this guy?? Where is the article from?? Unfortunately I'll probably not get an answer. How about posting this link in "My favorite links" on this site. If not we'll (at least I) assume its just another piece of useless trivia. Sorry for the rant-I just see too much of this crap [Mad]
 

pscholte

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Al, I posted the URL on the links page as you requested. It's under "Gerhard's SR20DE Page" Paul
 

pscholte

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quote:
Originally posted by pscholte: I wonder how well a chain of UOAs for an engine and an actual teardown of the same engine correlate.
First, I thank everyone for their inputs so far... G-MAN II and TR3-2001SE, I hear what you are saying...I know there are a million self-proclaimed experts and some who may claim to be "engineers for large OEMs" that aren't, BUT the "ponder" above still nags me. Some may say, "Well, duh, Scholte, it's a no brainer...good UOAs...clean engine with little or minimal wear when torn down," but have we actually seen some correlations from our own gang here on the site or cited elsewhere...you know, just as a confidence factor that we believe is what is. (Yes, I realize that what I pose means big bucks and that we are acting on the most logical info out there at a reasonable cost, but still I wonder....) Regards
 
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191
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KY
pscholte, Here is the result from my 10,000 mile Mobil 1 UOA. Nothing was out of range. In this application, with this oil, I see no compelling reason to change it more frequently.
 
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