OPEC president is open to cutting oil production

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GON

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Might be a time to look at a weekday use four banger for drivers with long commutes and full-size trucks:

Momentum is building among oil producers behind the idea of cutting crude production to stabilize the market, with OPEC’s president the latest to back Saudi Arabia’s suggestion that the alliance might pump less—comments that pushed the price of a barrel back over $100 earlier this week.

 
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We are seeing first hand why it's important to be energy independent. I still think we need to be looking at alternative fuels but that doesn't mean we need to abandon oil right now. Were decades at best from technology to totally stop using fossil fuel across all industries. The USA should NEVER be in a position where the energy, transportation, and other sectors can be destabilized by things we've let out of our control.
 

dishdude

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We are seeing first hand why it's important to be energy independent. I still think we need to be looking at alternative fuels but that doesn't mean we need to abandon oil right now. Were decades at best from technology to totally stop using fossil fuel across all industries. The USA should NEVER be in a position where the energy, transportation, and other sectors can be destabilized by things we've let out of our control.

We produce about the same amount of oil as we consume in this country, the problem is it all goes on the global market. Part of that energy independence could be curtailing the consumption in this country. We waste a lot as well.
 
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We are seeing first hand why it's important to be energy independent. I still think we need to be looking at alternative fuels but that doesn't mean we need to abandon oil right now. Were decades at best from technology to totally stop using fossil fuel across all industries. The USA should NEVER be in a position where the energy, transportation, and other sectors can be destabilized by things we've let out of our control.

Energy independence is a fairy tale told to gullible people by cable news talking heads.

Here's a great primer on markets and how they work:

Unless you'd prefer the alternative: Nationalizing the US oil industry and letting the government control the flow of oil. This is the path to "energy independence."
 

GON

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Energy independence is a fairy tale told to gullible people by cable news talking heads.

Here's a great primer on markets and how they work:

Unless you'd prefer the alternative: Nationalizing the US oil industry and letting the government control the flow of oil.

I prefer free markets and reducing/ elimination of barriers to make, sell, market , products and services.
 
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I prefer free markets and reducing/ elimination of barriers to make, sell, market , products and services.

So do I. "Energy independence" cannot exist in a free market. The foundational concepts are wildly at odds with one another.

That's the paradox of it all: The same people who parrot "energy independence" on the television are the same people who believe in free markets and that "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."
 
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I prefer free markets and reducing/ elimination of barriers to make, sell, market , products and services.
Exactly. This is the point I was trying to make however after re-reading my post I should have worded it differently. I personally feel there is too much red tape in the oil industry right now.
 

GON

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I am quite confident the USA can be not only energy independent, but be one of the world's leader in fossil fuel exports in under 30 months.

Yes, there will be drilling in yours and mine backyard. Energy independence is critical to national security, as is manufacturing. Neither energy nor manufacturing should be in the hands of foreign governments if the USA is to continue to be prosperous, have the ability to direct its own destiny, and continue to be the land of the free and a opportunity for any person in the united States to select their own destiny by the choices they make.
 
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So do I. "Energy independence" cannot exist in a free market. The foundational concepts are wildly at odds with one another.

That's the paradox of it all: The same people who parrot "energy independence" on the television are the same people who believe in free markets and that "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help.",
So the US is blessed to have, by most accounts, a healthy pile (puddle?) of fossil fuels under its dirt. We don't "have" to buy it from anybody. That pretty much makes us independent. We choose to trade some crude here & there, some finished product for logistics reasons, and we export some for financial gain.

But if the game of musical chairs ends and we all have to live with what we've got, we're in a good spot.

I, BTW, am happy with leaving some of it under the dirt for the next generation. Let's trick the world into giving us some while we export little green pieces of paper. If that means using the environment as an excuse for leaving it there for a while longer...
 
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So do I. "Energy independence" cannot exist in a free market. The foundational concepts are wildly at odds with one another.

That's the paradox of it all: The same people who parrot "energy independence" on the television are the same people who believe in free markets and that "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help."
Nationalized industry is the shortest path to starving children and free falling economies.
 

SammyChevelleTypeS3

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We are seeing first hand why it's important to be energy independent. I still think we need to be looking at alternative fuels but that doesn't mean we need to abandon oil right now. Were decades at best from technology to totally stop using fossil fuel across all industries. The USA should NEVER be in a position where the energy, transportation, and other sectors can be destabilized by things we've let out of our control.
AGREE. Plus people always like to forget the USA + Canada and a few other western countries are the cleanest operators in respect to just about any industry on earth. I am certain some will scream bloody murder and say this is a flat out lie. I been to many industrial plants and know what I have seen. The place I retired from was so clean in fact it was used as a place for other companies to send their Safety & Industrial Hygiene Specialists to tour and get instructions on to comply with massive EPA rules. It was so strick that near the end of my work days I was involved in what was called a "fugitive emissions program" where every single pipe flange, valve, pump and safety device vents had to have stainless steel metal tags on them with ID numbers to track. The EPA made several surprise inspections and the first things they wanted to see was the log books with all the ID descriptions and numbers and to be taken to random spots to see the equipment. There were rules you could be fined for because you are required to have each ID numbered equipment logged down with dates and times of any found leaks and you had so many hours / days to either make temporary repairs or shutdown equipment to fix the leakers. If you were allowed to postpone until scheduled shutdown you actually had to use special air monitoring equipment and log in the findings. This is not liquid spilling leaks which are a whole other deal. This was leaks that were so minor you only knew about them by seeing the stained white insualtion that was required to be in place on these locations. I would bet money you can not find any manufacturing / chemical or refinery plants across the world who follow such strict environmental rules that come close to these.
 
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We produce about the same amount of oil as we consume in this country, the problem is it all goes on the global market. Part of that energy independence could be curtailing the consumption in this country. We waste a lot as well.
Given that oil is an inelastic product, less consumption is not a good solution. Short term it helps if there is excess supply. But oil companies can just slow production to control prices.
Developing a viable alternative is the way to foster competition. Right now there is none.
 
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Given that oil is an inelastic product, less consumption is not a good solution. Short term it helps if there is excess supply. But oil companies can just slow production to control prices.
Developing a viable alternative is the way to foster competition. Right now there is none.
There are no viable alternatives except for nuclear power... and there are too many nail biting Karen's in this country for that to get any traction. All the windmills and solar farms that have been built have not been enough to keep up with the growth in demand.
 
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So the US is blessed to have, by most accounts, a healthy pile (puddle?) of fossil fuels under its dirt. We don't "have" to buy it from anybody. That pretty much makes us independent. We choose to trade some crude here & there, some finished product for logistics reasons, and we export some for financial gain.

Yes. We. Do.

The United States of America doesn't take the oil out of the ground. BP, Shell, ExxonMobil, etc. takes it out of the ground.

They own the oil, not the United States of America.

The only way "energy independence" exists is if the United States of America (that is, the government) owns the oil and can direct where the oil is going and who it is sold to.

Countries that have state-owned oil corporations can do this:
Saudi Arabia - Saudi Aramco
Russia - Gazprom
Venezuela - PDVSA
China - Sinopec

The United States can't tell Shell that they can only sell oil to American refiners for distribution in America. If Shell were a state-owned petro company, they could. If that were the case, the government could direct everything that comes out of the ground from the state-owned company goes to American refiners at set prices and can only be sold to American consumers until demand is satisfied.

That is energy independence. Until the oil industry is nationalized, it's not going to happen.

When you see a headline like: U.S. Monthly Oil Shipments to Europe Climb to Highest Since 2016

In this headline, "U.S." is being used as a location. As in, the large mass of land between Canada and Mexico where products originate from. The United States of America didn't create those products nor does it own, sell, or ship them. When you buy a Harbor Freight tool from China, you're not buying a crappy tool from the Chinese government. You're buying a tool that was made on that large land mass across the Pacific. It's a reference to the place of origin, not the government.

It's not the United States of America sending that oil to Europe. The country isn't sending it there, oil companies are. The country isn't selling it, the oil companies are. The country isn't directly profiting, the oil companies are.

Why? Because the country doesn't own the oil.

The US doesn't export cars to Australia, Ford does. The US doesn't pocket the profits when soybeans are exported to South Korea, the farmer does.

If the United States of America wants oil, it absolutely has to buy it, just like it has to buy soybeans and Ford F150s.

This is how markets work.
 
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The United States can't tell Shell that they can only sell oil to American refiners for distribution in America. If Shell were a state-owned petro company, they could. If that were the case, the government could direct everything that comes out of the ground from the state-owned company goes to American refiners at set prices and can only be sold to American consumers until demand is satisfied.
Actually, it was illegal in the US to export crude oil between 1975 until around 2015. If they pumped it out of the ground, it had to be consumed in the US.

We have a long history of state owned oil companies around the world failing abjectly at actually being able to pump oil out of the ground. Every single country in the world that has state owned oil production has eventually ended up relying significantly on western free market companies to develop their oil production for them. What you are proposing never works and it's been tried a lot.
 
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Oil companies don’t actually own the oil until they either pay royalties or purchase the mineral rights to explore. Then after finding oil after drilling and paying state excise taxes, setting up production at the well site and paying transportation costs from the well to the refinery then the oil company (Exxon/Mobil, Shell, BP or whoever) owns the oil.

*”Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him had better take a much closer look at the American Indian.” ~ Henry Ford
 
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