Old, dirty oil is a better lubricant than new oil...

[Ken2]

quote:

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I was on nissanforums.com and someone stated their uncle was a Nissan mechanic and he said to leave the initial factory fill in for at least 4,000 miles. He said the initial metal flakes in the oil would help the rings seat better.

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Yes, but...

"Seating the rings" is another term for wearing in together. Wear is the result. The question is how to get the seating with the least possible wear?

One brand of big diesel engine, Sulzer, requires that high sulfur fuel (>2%) be used with zero TBN cylinder oil for 24 hours after rings or liner have been renewed. This is to allow acid attack to accelerate seating of the rings.


Ken

 

[labman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Kestas:
Some of the posts here show a basic lack of understand the different forms of carbon found in nature and in man-made materials. snip...


Carbon can also be arranged in chains, sometimes called amorphous carbon. I'm not too familiar with this type of carbon, it has little value as an engineered material.

Snip...

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Carbon black, soot, lamp black, amorphous carbon, and other names is widely use as a pigment and a reinforcement agent in rubber. Unlike pigments that are only added for color or hiding and fillers that mainly control cost, the carbon black in rubber actually improves the strength. I think the high tech carbon reinforced plastic uses both graphite and amorphous carbon. In the right combination with other material, it is highly valuable as an engineering material.

 

[mikemc]

" During this conversation, another mechanic came up and agreed about the carbon. He said that he could tell when his car needs an oil change because the oil starts leaking out the drain plug!" Maybe the poor engine was trying to force the old oil out!

 

[dickwells]

"Question: Was it because the suspended solid carbon molecules provided no discernable benefit ... or people couldn't get used to the idea of pouring new, blackened oil into their cars? "

In my case it was because a slightly bad valve guide would cause a fouled plug which would never burn off.

I have also mentioned here before about the article in an old MI showing that a new engine broke in faster and cooler with used oil. I don't think you want to keep "breaking in" you engine on a long term basis though.

 

[Blue636]

This is so crazy. If soot was such a great lubricant, then we wouldn't have any high detergent and high "soot control" oils such as Rotella. Weird.

 

[heyjay]

quote:

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Originally posted by Blue636:
This is so crazy. If soot was such a great lubricant, then we wouldn't have any high detergent and high "soot control" oils such as Rotella. Weird.

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Yeah.

Why not just go to any fleet operator and get a free barrel of used oil? Then you could pour that black sooty oil into your nice new car motor.

It would last forever.

Hehehe, though I would LOVE to see somebody try a stunt like that. I'm all for spectacular special effects.

Jerry

 

[SteveD2]

It allways amazes me how many mechanics say things like this thinking they're an expert in the subject.

Not just things that aren't good for the oil, but things that go completely against everything good for your engine...

 

[JohnBrowning]

Ken2, the best why to seat the rings and not wear them excessively is with concentrated additive package. YOu want crazy levels of ZDDP and Moly. It helps to have other additives as well.

Ideally you want to do some hard accelerations to seat rings outward against the block. Some would tell you to drive it like you just stole it the first 20 mile!

You would not want to do WOT from a dead stop. Get moveing up to about 20MPH and then WOT to 55 then engine brake back down to 20 and repeat.

Moto Tune USA has made this type of approach famos. I first learned of doing hard acceleration to brake the engine in from Dodge. My 2001 Dodge Dakota recomend hard acceleration from a stand still repeated to help break in the engine!

 

[TC]

1. "Soot" = Very fine CARBON particles from the combustion chamber that gets past the piston rings through blow-by on the combustion stroke. http://www.mg-sportcars.co.uk/Motor_Oil_FA_Questions.htm

2."One of the major contaminants facing the new oils of today is soot contamination."
"Several SAE papers have shown how soot contributes to diesel engine wear."
"The majority of soot particles generated within the engine are 10 microns or SMALLER."
"It is generally recognized, backed by numerous tests and studies over the last 40 years, that contamination generated in an engine that is responsible for the majority of 'normal' wear, is within the 1 - 15 micron range."
1 http://gulfcoastfilter.com/understanding.htm

 

[Road Rage]

Perhaps not all mechanics know what TBN, TAN, acidification, oxidation, etc. have to do with lubrication. They certainly should know the results of oxidation and oil shear - it is the same sludge that inhabits the space between those mechanics' ears! If they were right, we would be seeing products like:
"DuraCarb", "DiamondLube", "Stardust-50", etc.

Hey, we could even build small carbon dating analyzers right into the oil sump - a little light will come on that says "Time's Up".

If what they said were true, we could just have a bottle of additives in the trunk with a fill valve that drains out what it adds. This would also be part of a dealer-installed package that includes the 1000 MPG carb, and the 200k tires that detroit has been witholding for years.

 

[Bror Jace]

Ken2, I can't quite tell from what you said. Are you agreeing with the mechanic who said that oil filled with metallic break-in debris is good thing for a new motor ... specifically for ring seating?

I just can't believe that the suspended junk would do a good, controlled job at seating rings.

Look at the way Honda loads up their break-in oil with moly.

My Spec-V 2.5L got frequent oil changes (avg. 2,000 mile oil drains) with a moly oil and infrequent full-throttle blasts. It is now past the 15,000 mile mark and has never needed a drop of top-off oil while others of this type guzzle oil. But a lot of the excessive consumption may be due to self-destructing pre-cat debris being ingested into the motor.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Schmoe]

yes

 

[Dr. T]

I think the thought is that as an oil ages or is used, it will thicken because the thinner more volatile components are burning off. Does this make it a better lubricant than when new? No, but maybe as the consumption decreases, someone might think that the oil 'got better'.

 

[cryptokid]

only thing i could add is that it seems alot of american engines, espically older designs, like to burn oil.

if i had an engine that burned 1 quart per 1000 or 2000 miles, i would NEVER change the oil in that thing.

 

[Steve S]

Clean oil is happy oil. Dirty oil makes sludge.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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You would not want to do WOT from a dead stop. Get moveing up to about 20MPH and then WOT to 55 then engine brake back down to 20 and repeat.

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This is the basic breakin for new rings that's been around forever. It has appeared to have been "lost" though. I read it first in HotRod in 1973 or 74 ..and later had it confirmed in a Perfect Circle "Dr. of Motors" clinic.

My basic technique was to run through the rpm range with a fairly heavy throttle ...and coast to the bottom end of the rpm range in whatever gear I was in (typically 2nd in a 3 speed auto ..and 3rd in a 5 speed stick)

...but..

Could you see the law suits having the entire motoring public doing this? How many of them would even get it right?

[ March 06, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Tim]

All this talk about soot is making me want to go out and change the oil in my little diesel!!!


Tim