ok, please ban me now. TOYOTA, TOYOTA, TOYOTA :)~

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The problem I've seen WRT this topic here and on some other sites I frequent is that moderators, admins and owners have opinions and biases themselves so that, when tweaked one way or the other, invoke loose interpretation of the rules, basically resulting in arbitrarily imposed censorship. They probably don't even consciously know they are doing it.

Whatever, it's all good.
 
Ever work for a boss that was perfect? Perhaps if members perfectly obeyed the rules, we would need less moderation. Maybe there have been some bad decisions here. Life is unfair, get over it.
 
In all fairness, not all Toyota threads get deleted, some of them remained roughly on track and have lasted for quite a while.

I agree that politics need to be kept aside. Personally, when I read a post where someone is clearly bashing some brand, I think I mentally discount any posts I see by that person at a later time.

Substantiated posts, however, I read and continue on. Even if I don't agree with what the person said.

doodfood had a thread sort of loosely about this in here a few days ago that basically said the same, but that one sure got out of hand.
 
Originally Posted By: ksJoe
obnoxiousness aside - I understand the Toyota topic causes the mod's some trouble. I'm sure they're very busy dealing with personal attacks.

...which is why you decided to waste their time with a tantrum? How considerate of you.

I'd be willing to bet real money that the only reason the mods didn't lock this thread is that playing into your hands would only make things worse here. If things weren't as bad as they are, you would have been treated appropriately to the tone of your post.

Let me give you some advice: If you really want things to be reasonable, act reasonably.
 
Originally Posted By: labman
Perhaps if members perfectly obeyed the rules, we would need less moderation. Maybe there have been some bad decisions here. Life is unfair, get over it.

Well said.
 
You don't pay to use this site, hence you aren't entitled to make up the rules. If you don't like the rules, leave and never return. Why even come back under a proxy IP? Don't you have better things to do with your life?
 
wwillson, how are we supposed to reconcile this:

Originally Posted By: wwillson
This is very simple - talk about Toyota all you want, but when the thread turns into childish name calling it goes away or gets locked.



With this (and others):

Originally Posted By: ksJoe
Was this one locked because it says:

Quote:
Just to yank your chain a little, LOL


I wanted to comment in that thread about it being a clever resume (which it is - look at the text at the top of the simulator, the guy is looking for work). But it was locked after the first response.

Or maybe there were some worse posts that got deleted? Whats in the thread now looks very acceptable for the humor section, IMHO.


When challenged, you claim to have a reasonable policy. But that does not match up with what appears to be happening.

How are we supposed to reconcile this?

A) the moderators say one thing, but do another.
B) the situation is different than it appears
 
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How about this;

There has been a large number of threads recently concerning Toyota, many of these thread have turned NASTY.
In an effort to re establish Harmony on this site, Moderators have decided to take preemptive action if they sense a thread is turning (or May turn) into another mud slinging session.

Is that it?

An apology could also be added to those of us here that obey the site rules.

But to just lock a thread comes across as arrogant!
 
Originally Posted By: wwillson
... talk about Toyota all you want, but when the thread turns into childish name calling it goes away or gets locked. Could we stick to facts and not bring politics or name calling into a Toyota thread?...

I believe I should chime in since I did most of the thread locking when it came to domestic vs import bashing, for the very reason Wayne posted. Too many posters took a healthy discussion and otherwise informative thread and dragged it down to mudslinging. Some posts were downright nasty and didn't do this board or the readers any favor with their presence. If I couldn't surgically remove the nasty content, I simply locked the thread. Out of courtesy to the readers, I sometimes explained WHY the threads were locked down. I will do this for any other topic and for the same reasons, not just for import vs domestic bashing.
 
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: wwillson
... talk about Toyota all you want, but when the thread turns into childish name calling it goes away or gets locked. Could we stick to facts and not bring politics or name calling into a Toyota thread?...

I believe I should chime in since I did most of the thread locking when it came to domestic vs import bashing, for the very reason Wayne posted. Too many posters took a healthy discussion and otherwise informative thread and dragged it down to mudslinging. Some posts were downright nasty and didn't do this board or the readers any favor with their presence. If I couldn't surgically remove the nasty content, I simply locked the thread. Out of courtesy to the readers, I sometimes explained WHY the threads were locked down. I will do this for any other topic and for the same reasons, not just for import vs domestic bashing.


I'm still waiting to hear why this thread was Locked!
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1810287#Post1810287
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
...which is why you decided to waste their time with a tantrum? How considerate of you.

Tantrum isn't the word I would chose, but if you like it I guess it will work. When I think of a tantrum, I imagine incoherent screaming. I've tried to keep my thoughts coherent in this thread. But as for your point - I disagree about this being a waste of their time. They act as though their thread locking is fair, rational, consistent, etc. They claim we can talk about Toyota "all we want" (with the minimal & reasonable restrictions given above).

The problem is what they say and what they do are not the same.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Let me give you some advice: If you really want things to be reasonable, act reasonably.


What would you advise as a reasonable response when a news/informational site portrays itself as unbiased and fair, when it is not?

If the stated policy was "I own the site, and I'll delete whatever I want to, and that's the way it is" then peoples suggestions to shut up or leave would be very reasonable. The site admins are free to do what they please. If they're honest about what they do, no has a right to complain about it.

But that is not the policy they claim to follow. If they claim to be fair, to allow reasonable discussion about [T-WORD], but do not... what is a reasonable response to that?

When it appears there is dishonesty, unfairness, etc, then IMO it is a disservice to the community for a person who sees it to simply shut up and leave.

With all due respect, I make the assertion that there is a substantive difference between what the admins claim to do, and what they actually do.
 
Originally Posted By: tonycarguy
You don't pay to use this site, hence you aren't entitled to make up the rules. If you don't like the rules, leave and never return.


I have no complaint against the rules.
 
Originally Posted By: ksJoe
Tantrum isn't the word I would chose, but if you like it I guess it will work. When I think of a tantrum, I imagine incoherent screaming. I've tried to keep my thoughts coherent in this thread.

And what do you call your opening post?


Originally Posted By: ksJoe
But as for your point - I disagree about this being a waste of their time. They act as though their thread locking is fair, rational, consistent, etc. They claim we can talk about Toyota "all we want" (with the minimal & reasonable restrictions given above).

I have no problem with your point. I disagree with the way you made it.


Originally Posted By: ksJoe
What would you advise as a reasonable response when a news/informational site portrays itself as unbiased and fair, when it is not?

A few ideas:

- Spell it out in your opening post the way you are spelling it out now. Act like you're talking to adults instead of lashing out.
- PM mods. I've done this a few times and found them VERY intelligent, kind, and responsive.
- ASK what the problem is instead of making declarations like you already know. Never assume you have the full story. There is a lot going on behind the scenes that you won't know unless people tell you about it.
- Make constructive suggestions. If all you do is tear things down, you look like a negative person no matter what your message is.
- Maybe address the MEMBERS, since they are the ones causing the problem in the first place. As has been said, it's such a big problem that the mods simply don't have time for fine-grained enforcement, so mistakes will happen. If the members acted like adults, the mods could ditch their broadswords for scalpels and things would go much more smoothly -- or, if they didn't, you'd have MUCH better grounds to complain.


Originally Posted By: ksJoe
When it appears there is dishonesty, unfairness, etc, then IMO it is a disservice to the community for a person who sees it to simply shut up and leave.

In general, most of the complaints made here frankly do deserve that kind of response. You brought a bit of that on yourself with your opening post. Again, act like you're talking to adults and you will be treated like an adult (or at least have better grounds to complain if you aren't treated as such).
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
And what do you call your opening post?


Now - valid
Originally (before a mod deleted the copy & pastes) - valid with a juvenile illustration to my point.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
- Spell it out in your opening post the way you are spelling it out now. Act like you're talking to adults instead of lashing out.
- PM mods. I've done this a few times and found them VERY intelligent, kind, and responsive.
- ASK what the problem is instead of making declarations like you already know. Never assume you have the full story. There is a lot going on behind the scenes that you won't know unless people tell you about it.
- Make constructive suggestions. If all you do is tear things down, you look like a negative person no matter what your message is.
- Maybe address the MEMBERS, since they are the ones causing the problem in the first place. As has been said, it's such a big problem that the mods simply don't have time for fine-grained enforcement, so mistakes will happen. If the members acted like adults, the mods could ditch their broadswords for scalpels and things would go much more smoothly -- or, if they didn't, you'd have MUCH better grounds to complain.


Good advice, but several of those options are time consuming to do. I don't spend so much time around here anymore, so its not worth it to me to invest the time to pursue the more involved suggestions.

I'm under the impression (which may be incorrect) that others have done those things without a meaningful improvement. That doesn't mean I should go that route as well, its just a factor in my time investment vs. chances of success consideration.

If it wasn't clear from my first post... I thought that since I've never had any formal disciplinary action here, I could make a point that many of the people leaving can't. I decided that getting banned wouldn't be loss to me, because of the how the site is being run now. When a troublemaker makes that comment, it doesn't mean much. When someone who isn't a troublemaker makes that decision, I thought it might accomplish something.
 
Originally Posted By: ksJoe
valid with a juvenile illustration to my point.

As long as we're on the same page.


Originally Posted By: ksJoe
Good advice, but several of those options are time consuming to do. I don't spend so much time around here anymore, so its not worth it to me to invest the time to pursue the more involved suggestions.

Okay, let's talk about cost/benefit here. If you don't care, why would you think the mods should listen to you? Think about it.


Originally Posted By: ksJoe
I'm under the impression (which may be incorrect) that others have done those things without a meaningful improvement. That doesn't mean I should go that route as well, its just a factor in my time investment vs. chances of success consideration.

I'd say yes, that impression is incorrect. Again, I have PMed mods to great effect.


Originally Posted By: ksJoe
When a troublemaker makes that comment, it doesn't mean much. When someone who isn't a troublemaker makes that decision, I thought it might accomplish something.

Exactly. So, don't be a troublemaker and you might accomplish something.

You broke your streak with your first post. You're not making things any better by insisting you don't care enough to be bothered by the outcome (which you obviously do). No matter how valid your point is, you've marked yourself as someone whose opinion the mods don't really need to consider.

Try another angle and see how things turn out. Trust me.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If you don't care, why would you think the mods should listen to you?


I didn't say I don't care. I just reread the thread to be sure of that. Maybe you're referring to me saying it wasn't worth it to me to invest a lot of time in communicating with the moderators? That's different than not caring. I'm not especially interested in any particular scenario, or the fate of any single thread. So I don't think its worth my time (or theirs) to be PM'ing the moderators about what happened in one thread.

My interest or "care" is of a more general nature. This site has boards for discussing auto industry news, and their rules are such that the biggest industry news isn't discussed much. Sure, the nature of the topic is going to provoke strong reactions, and it will get rough at times, but IMO that's an inherent characteristic of the topic. So as I see it, the question really comes down to whether or not they want to discuss industry news.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
I'd say yes, that impression is incorrect. Again, I have PMed mods to great effect.


Presumably your goal was more specific?

Or did you tell them their consensus was way off base on the most relevant policy at the time, and see them do an about face?

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
You're not making things any better by insisting you don't care enough to be bothered by the outcome (which you obviously do).


I think that's a miscommunication between us. I don't think I said I don't care, and that wasn't the sentiment I intended to convey.

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Try another angle and see how things turn out. Trust me.


At this point I suspect all the moderators have already seen this thread. Repeating myself in private messages would probably be seen as antagonism. I've done enough of that in this thread, no need to carry on the fight on two fronts
55.gif
 
I like Toyota. I want a twin turbo Supra sooooooooooooo bad!!!!!! I saw a silver one today and it made me want one even more!
 
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