Oil vs. Time and the elements.....

[HondaRD]

I was thinking about this earlier....What does synthetic oil have that dino oil doesnt given this senario: If synthetic oil is changed say around 6,000 miles versus dino oil being changed at 3,000 miles, wouldn't the 3,000 miles interval of dino oil be advantageous considering that over time, water, soot, dirt and other harmful elements would be suspended longer in the engine. Since the average person drives their car about 12,000 miles a year, that would mean 2 seasons would pass before the average person changes their synthetic oil at 6,000 miles. (this is the case if you live somewhere where you have 4 season). I just figured that since the engine is not exactly a closed system where the effects of mother nature can take its toll inside the engine by introducing water, dirt, etc., there may be advantages of changing oil sooner than 6k. Especially on those late winter/early spring nights where temps can sometimes be close to the dew points and the air becomes more saturated with water....Just a thought at 2 am while I eat my Hot Pocket.

 

[eldawg4100]

i run mobil 1 and still change my oil 3-4k, some may say its a stupid complete waste, but it makes me feel good! i love to change oil....

 

[Mark in NY]

I used to think just as you stated, and I may change my mind again and go back to cheaper, more frequent oil changes, but- I have seen engines that have had 3k oil changes at cheepy lube become gunked up, ticking etc. I find that syn oil stays noticably cleaner for months compared to dino.
After years of thinking that piston ring blowby was darkening the oil, I think that much of the darkening is from the oil rapidly aging from the heat, shearing etc. I have 3 cars running Mobil 1 now and after 6 months the oil looks like it was changed a few weeks ago. (I know this is not oil analysis just visual judgement).
I am very interested in the discussions that are going on here right now about the oil change intervals of MB when using a 229.3 or 229.5 spec syn oil.
I tend to think that I am going to be changing my oil once a year and continuing to use M1 0-40 instead of dino oil at more frequent changes.

 

[Patman]

Someone mentioned to me that they felt that changing dino oil at 3k was more beneficial for their engine than using synthetic oil and changing at 6k or more intervals. Honestly, I didn't know how to comeback from that statement.

 

[Pablo]

6K and two seasons is really not so hard for any synthetic oil.....your car will last plenty long with this regimen.

My argument against 3K OCI in this case is simply waste oil....

 

[Pops]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
Someone mentioned to me that they felt that changing dino oil at 3k was more beneficial for their engine than using synthetic oil and changing at 6k or more intervals. Honestly, I didn't know how to comeback from that statement.

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If that someone has never used a PAO blend and is in tune with their motor they will never use a mineral oil again unless the become financially strapped. I could actualy feel a difference in power and saw the difference in gas milaege in the two blends I have tried over a mineral oil. I suppose a true synthetic might be a little better.I have ordered some to see.I dont really like the true synthetics available where I live so I have to order everything . Even the two blends I have used .

 

[mormit]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
Someone mentioned to me that they felt that changing dino oil at 3k was more beneficial for their engine than using synthetic oil and changing at 6k or more intervals. Honestly, I didn't know how to comeback from that statement.

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What was that opinion based upon? If they can show with oil analysis that the 3K dino produced less wear per 1000mi then yes, go with it. An extreme short tripper may indeed be better off with frequent (4month) oil changes regardles of mileage due to condensation and acid accumulation concerns.

 

[Spector]

Well as a user of synthetic oil for over 10 years now I am convinced that if you change your oil every 3000 miles with any piece of crap filter and the cheapest SL rated oil your engine will outlive the rest of the car in the same manner as using synthetic, a quality filter and changing every 7500-15,000 or once a year. I haven't seen any studies to prove otherwise.

I service five cars in the famikly all on synthetic, two are at 7500 mile intervals regardless of time, one is 12,000 regardless of time and two are once a year regardless of mileage (less tehn 12,000/yr). This was determined based upon oil analysis, the two at 7500 just beat up the oil too much for continued use. Highest mileage one is 150,000. I have no concept if they would have lasted longer or shorter lives if I use dino at 3000. Definitely more of a hassle with less leeway for error. Now I have no problem if I cannot get to an oil change at the right ingerval, syntheitic does give you more piece of mind.

All comments on this hyothesis are anecdotal, actual live studies (not statistical projectons or models), have never been done with two cars exact engines with different schedules and oil and see which one dies first or has significant oil consumption.

 

[Patman]

What Spector is saying is most likely the absolute truth. Doing what everyone else in America does, 3k with dino, will probably be good enough for most of the driving public to get a very long engine life, longer than they want to keep the car, or longer than they have other major mechanical problems. Without two identical cars doing two identical cycles with these two different approaches, nobody knows for sure which is better.

So to argue with the people that want to stay with dino and 3k, and try to convince them that synthetic (or a good blend) at longer intervals is better, is a tough sell. I can provide them with oil analysis data, technical info, etc., but for every piece of data I show them, they can counter back with how their neighbor has a car with 250k on it that has had nothing but dino oil. It's very hard to prove to these people that synthetic extends the life of their engine, when there are so many stories of engines going a long distance on dino oil. Everyone here knows that synthetics are better engineered oils, and show better on oil analysis reports and various tests. But in the real world they simply haven't shown to be that much different. I simply continue the practice because I don't want to change the oil so often, and I'm not confident that a dino oil can go 6-10k or more.

Sometimes the more I learn about oil, the more I get confused as to what the best plans are. And people are always trying to shoot holes in my theories that I provide them.

What am I trying to say. I'm not sure now.

I'm confusing myself today.

[ December 13, 2002, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[Pops]

I think two very good reasons for using a synthetic or a true PAO blend is seal life over the long haul . Another would be engine cleanliness at 200k miles.A new style 100 hp motor will have more HP at 200k with a PAO blend or a Synthetic I think .

I have seen a cleaning effect from using a blend on two motors first hand that I own after using dino all their lives.Thats all,just changing oils .

Many people buy those new cars and say they will keep them forever then 6 years down the road a new style comes along they just can't live without.If they have used a lend or pure synthetic and ran the miles up on the changes they will have saved money and the next owner will most likely get a better motor.

We will never all agree it looks like but IMO a PAO blend hits right in the middle of the best oil to use for me but I have ordered some 5/30 true synthetic for one car just because I want to see how it works and because I can

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

Didn't Consumers Reports do a study of taxi cabs (arguably the hardest vehicles on motor oil) a few years back. They tested different viscosities as low as 5w-30, conventional oil, and synthetic oils. If I remember correctly, their findings were that there wasn't any difference in the engine wear between the different vehicles. The thin viscosity oils performed as well as the thicker vis. oils, and conventional oils performed as well as synthetic oils. The study seemed to be pretty comprehensive and was done over a long period of time 1-2 years ?. I wish I kept the details of that study, it seemed to be pretty informative from what I could tell. Anyone have any opinions or knowledge about that study ?.

 

[Spector]

I do not believe the study included synthetics

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Yes we had a big thread on it a while back, do a search and you should find it.

 

[msparks]

quote:

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Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:
Didn't Consumers Reports do a study of taxi cabs (arguably the hardest vehicles on motor oil) a few years back. Anyone have any opinions or knowledge about that study ?.

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Didn't Amsoil also do a study of NY Taxi's. One lot changed every 3,000 with conventional. Once changed every 12000 with Amsoil, and the last 60,000 with Amsoil and by-pass??

I think I remember reading something about that. It's hard for me to believe that a car with 250,000 miles on conventional oil is running better than a car with the same miles but using synthetics even if the synthetic interval was 3 times that of the conventional.

 

[Dr. T]

First off, I hope your engine is a closed system..otherwise, remove all air filters and run without the oil cap!

Your engine should be a closed system devoid of outside contaminants. Obviously temp. changes will affect the internal environment..but, that's a different story.

I will agree...you could run the cheapest conv. oil and change it daily...and never have a problem...but, we all know that's not the point of discussion. Just like, you don't need to replace the light switches after every 10 turn on/off's, or replace the buttons on your shirt every 10 wears, why replace the oil every 3k. Heck, I'll do this in 3 wks. sometimes...your want to change your oil as aften as re-fueling? This is ridiculous and there needs to be a better way. Go a little further and use a better lubricant.

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by rgiles:


I like the idea of extended drains, but there are downsides to it, such as resale value.

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I don't believe this to be true. At least not if you're trading cars in at the dealer. I've mostly done my car deals this way and not once has a dealer ever asked me for maintenance records or how often I changed my oil. If the car looks good and the mileage is reasonable, that's the two biggest things right there. It's not as if they are going to knock off $1000 off the price they pay you due to not having oil change receipts.

I honestly don't see any real negatives to extended drains at all, not if you're doing it smartly (oil analysis, researching the better oils, etc.) I'm not a huge tree hugger or anything, but you also have to look at the upside of extended drains, less waste oil.

 

[MavRick]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:

quote:

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Originally posted by rgiles:


I like the idea of extended drains, but there are downsides to it, such as resale value.

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I don't believe this to be true. At least not if you're trading cars in at the dealer.

SNIP

I honestly don't see any real negatives to extended drains at all, not if you're doing it smartly (oil analysis, researching the better oils, etc.) I'm not a huge tree hugger or anything, but you also have to look at the upside of extended drains, less waste oil.

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Your first point is valid if you are willing to take a dealers price which is typically MUCH lower than blue book. Also dealers can check maintenence records if you use certain dealers or service centers to have the work done. And if they do pay you blue book then you are getting ripped off on the new car! They aren't a charity after all.

Your 2nd point about the environment, I think that's a good one also, however If you recycle the oil, it goes to good use by being burned for energy or other applications. Plus fresh oil will typically have fewer emmissions (out the pipe) than old oil in the engine. So the environmental benefits aren't as clear to me.

To me I might toy with the idea of extened drains in the 7500-10000 mile range with analysis. But the 35000 mile drains with bypass filters etc seem more hassle than they are worth. Just my $.02.

 

[Spector]

Having sold a few with Amsoil stickers under the hood I assure you most general public buyers don't want to hear extended drains or synthetics. Dealers DON"T CARE the private buyers do. They are EXTREMELY skeptical of what you have done.

And, very few true cost comparison are valid (done for pure marketing reasons and not realistic comparisons) between dino and synthetic, fact is the way 99% of the synthetic users change their oil (7500 miles or less, especially M1 users) and with analysis at $25 a pop synthetics are not cost effective especially if you dump that car in 100,000 miles or less.

Just MHO
I use synthetics and analysis because I have no life and I can afford the addiction!

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Spector:


I use synthetics and analysis because I have no life and I can afford the addiction!

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Hehe, me too! (although I'm not that rich)

I'm going to end up spending just as much on analyzing my oil for my upcoming extended interval tests as I would simply changing the oil. But it's an experiment for me, and a fun one. I'm really dying to show a lot of my 3k oil change friends that what they are doing is not necessary. I think that some of them honestly believe that when the odometer hits 3k, that the oil is so full of bad stuff that if they leave it in any longer their engine will self destruct.

[ December 13, 2002, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[Greg]

but their odometers won't say '3k' they'll say 4800 km.