Oil Specs for New VW/Audi gas engines

[moribundman]

quote:

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So the only reason VW specs their own oil classification is for long OCIs? For those of use that don't do long OCIs, what do we care if it meets VW this or that?

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No, long OCIs are not the general reason. VW, along with all other Euro makers has had specicfic specs and requirements for a long time. I don't know when the manufacturer's began coming up with their own specs, but even my '81 VW Scirocco required specific oil that had to meet VW standards.

quote:

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Most oils pass VW's specs anyways.

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That's simply not true. Most oils on the US market do not even meet the minimum HTHS required by most VW oil specs.

quote:

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VW's gas engines are nothing special, at least not special enough to warrant having their own oil classification just to have one. Geez, the 2.0 has been around for umpteem years now and it hasn't changed all that much since it's inception. Was VW spec this or that around back then? Doubt it.

VW has had their own oil specs for a very long time. I don't know the year of VW oil spec inception, but it's surely pre-1980s!

VW is just trying to strong arm people into using a limited product base in my opinion. I'm not buying it

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There is no oil shortage of the proper VW spec oils in Europe. If anyone is to blame for a lack of proper oil in the US, it's VoA (Volkswagen of America). VAG (Volkswagen Audi Gesellschaft) has not control over VoA's marketing. I've been told so by BOTH repeatedly. They are two companies.

quote:

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...not unless I had the 1.9 diesel....they do appear to need the VW spec oil for their injection system.

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Again, there is no shortage of the proper oil in Europe. And you don't have to buy it at the dealer either, who, by the way, usually don't charge more for oil than a regular retailer.

One shoe doesn't fit all feet. Today's engines are extremly complex, materials are exotic. Manufacturer-specific oil specs are either to ensure that an oil of acceptable quality is used, or that an oil is used, which is vital for the engine. The latter is the case with the PD engine, as you yourself seem to realize.

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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If US engine builders would get more involved in specifying the exact lubrication requirements of their engines

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Well, they do just that. However, they do it through industry standards committees rather than one manufacturer at a time.

VW has gone absolutely bonkers with custom specifications by engine, by year, by phase of the moon. If you ask me, this is a sign of sloppy engineering of the engines by VW.

Honda, Toyota and Nissan make a kick-butt set of engines with world leading combinations of performance, fuel economy, durability and low emissions ... and they do it without custom oil specifications.

John

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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VW has gone absolutely bonkers with custom specifications by engine, by year, by phase of the moon. If you ask me, this is a sign of sloppy engineering of the engines by VW.

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That's not true.

There are different oils for gassers that have different equipment that makes them perfectly suitable for a specific oil:

-regular HTHS synthetic
-regular HTHS/extended drain
-regular HTHS multigrade
-low HTHS synthetic, extended drain (I think, but would have to check)

You can use VW 502.00 in ALL VW/Audi gas engines, although you won't be able to go for the extended drain. What's so difficult?

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
the issue of Euro engine Manufacturer specific oil specs is NOT NEW!

DB had specs based on Mil2104, API equivalent and their own testing in the 1950s! Their Approved Oils List has been around since that time - compiled as a result of their own test protocols!
As an example the oil for their OM326 (diesel) in 1961 specified an "HD" with a viscosity of 20w-20 or 10w-20 above 14f
Their Approved List was then referred to!
This was a benchmark engine for lubricant testing processes and was often referred to
Later Cat Series 3 and Mil was included too

VW at this time like Porsche recommended "HD" oils too over petrol specific oils. VW commenced their Approvals and Specs in the late 1960s early 1970s when their coolant cooled engines appeared and prior to that via Audi (many of the same engines). Sludging was a real issue in many petrol engine families during the 1960s!

The "Approvals" are very complex and for engine specific technologies and most default as a minimum to A3/B3 and etc.

As I recall Ford also has specific oil specs for the V4 and V6 Taunus engines in the early 1960s

The simple answer is to use what is specified (or better when out of warranty) and Approved. But don't knock Euro technologies. The Asians build for markets where oil qualities are suspect and tainted with "unobtainium" at times.
If you could see the condition of some of the engines imported into NZ/OZ (secondhand cars) you would see what poor oil specs really mean!!!
Just like in Russia in the 1960s as I recall when driving from Copenhagen via Helsinki to Moscow and return

Remember an Approved List oil is not the same as one that is simply "recommended" or meets ????? "Approval"

I like the ACEA and Manufacturer specific specifications over the Oil Industry driven API specs of the past. They are driven by the Engine design personnel but at least the API now use Manufacturer based Committees when developing new quality standards

Ted - VW500 and 505 (petrol/diesel) were in place during 1992 and probably an earlier variant was around one year sooner

Regards
Doug

[ April 11, 2005, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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Ted - VW500 and 505 (petrol/diesel) were in place during 1992 and probably an earlier variant was around one year sooner

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Got my '89 VW Scirocco manual right here. VW 500.00 was then the top tier VW oil spec for gassers. It was replaced by VW 502.00 some time after 1996. If only I were able to find my '81 Scirocco manual!

 

[jthorner]

quote:

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You can use VW 502.00 in ALL VW/Audi gas engines, although you won't be able to go for the extended drain. What's so difficult?

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What is so special about Volkswagens that they need a different oil specification than BMW, Volvo or Toyota?

Oh well, it doesn't matter, VW/Audi is trying very hard to kill itself off in the marketplace. Foolish nonsense like spending a fortune to build the VW Phaeton ... bzzzzt.

John

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
John - oh well Ford had the Edsell!

They had Ford Trucks too - now they are IVECO in Europe and Freightliner in the USA - well should I say Daimler-Chrysler!!!
And they have Aston Martin and Landrover and are doing a great self destruct job.

GM had FIAT until FIAT got smart and took the money!!!

Regards
Doug

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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What is so special about Volkswagens that they need a different oil specification than BMW, Volvo or Toyota?

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Each of those have their own oil specs! What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

quote:

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Oh well, it doesn't matter, VW/Audi is trying very hard to kill itself off in the marketplace. Foolish nonsense like spending a fortune to build the VW Phaeton ... bzzzzt.

John

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Well, Opel (GM-owned) will be out of business long before VAG-Porsche. They are already cutting down production and jobs. They haven't built a decent car in nearly a decade.

I have to question why your are so opposed to VW having their own oils specs? Everyone else has their own. If you are essentially a proponent of a universal oil spec, why are you on these forums, which are for oil nuts who like to obsess, right? More diversity is good, amigo!

Ingo Pauler, member of the board at Fuchs Petrolub commented on the ADAC (Sort of like the German AAA) critique of oil specs becoming more and more diffcult to comprehend by the layman and even by the mechanic: "Once, oil was used for cooling and lubrication, today is an element in the design and construction of high performance motors." Pauler says the driving force behind the increasing number of oil specs are environmental concerns and reduced fuel consumption.

http://www.zeit.de/2003/38/IAA-Wartungsarme_Autos

 

[TooSlick]

The 10,000 mile oil change intervals VW/Audi recommends is based on very high quality oils meeting their 502.00 or 505.00 specifications for gas and diesel engines, respectively.

I see no problem running conventional 15w-40 oils in non-turbocharged VW engines, provided you use shorter service intervals. I'd still use an oil with a HT/HS of at least 3.5 Cp for optimum wear protection and low oil consumption. Hence the SAE 15w-40 recommendation....

I agree with John, however I'd like to see the three tiered system (A1/B1,A2/B2,A3/B4) in the US that the ACEA uses in other countries.

TS

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:

quote:

---

So the only reason VW specs their own oil classification is for long OCIs? For those of use that don't do long OCIs, what do we care if it meets VW this or that?

---

No, long OCIs are not the general reason. VW, along with all other Euro makers has had specicfic specs and requirements for a long time. I don't know when the manufacturer's began coming up with their own specs, but even my '81 VW Scirocco required specific oil that had to meet VW standards.

quote:

---

Most oils pass VW's specs anyways.

---

That's simply not true. Most oils on the US market do not even meet the minimum HTHS required by most VW oil specs.

quote:

---

VW's gas engines are nothing special, at least not special enough to warrant having their own oil classification just to have one. Geez, the 2.0 has been around for umpteem years now and it hasn't changed all that much since it's inception. Was VW spec this or that around back then? Doubt it.

VW has had their own oil specs for a very long time. I don't know the year of VW oil spec inception, but it's surely pre-1980s!

VW is just trying to strong arm people into using a limited product base in my opinion. I'm not buying it

---

There is no oil shortage of the proper VW spec oils in Europe. If anyone is to blame for a lack of proper oil in the US, it's VoA (Volkswagen of America). VAG (Volkswagen Audi Gesellschaft) has not control over VoA's marketing. I've been told so by BOTH repeatedly. They are two companies.

quote:

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...not unless I had the 1.9 diesel....they do appear to need the VW spec oil for their injection system.

---

Again, there is no shortage of the proper oil in Europe. And you don't have to buy it at the dealer either, who, by the way, usually don't charge more for oil than a regular retailer.

One shoe doesn't fit all feet. Today's engines are extremly complex, materials are exotic. Manufacturer-specific oil specs are either to ensure that an oil of acceptable quality is used, or that an oil is used, which is vital for the engine. The latter is the case with the PD engine, as you yourself seem to realize.

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That's all fine and dandy but you know what? If a VW spec oil is not available, a API grade is acceptable to use instead. Says so in the owner's manuals for my 01 and 04-for the 2.0 at least. So that blows your theory.

 

[moribundman]

It doesn't blow my theory. Look at the excerpts I posted from the 2005 manual of the current Audi A4 2.0T in another thread. Only VW 502.00 oil is allowed. Other oil, including API SL can be used for topping off, but not more than 0.5 quarts between oil changes may be added, unless the oil meets VW 502.00. *wink*

 

[TooSlick]

99,

I leased a '97 Jetta GL with the 2.0L, 115 Hp engine. While it ran smoothly even on 87 octane fuel, it would do everything but chase a stick.

It's interesting but if you look at the bore/stroke on the new 2.0L, direct injection VW/Audi turbo you'll see they are using the same, cast iron block from the old 2.0L engine...

TS

 

[99]

Well, since I own a 04 Jetta this is what the 04 Jetta manaul says verbatim.

" To assure that the oil you use is of the highest quality required by your vehicle the following terms must appear on the oil container singly or in combination with other designations:

Gasoline Engines

-VW 502.00 or VW 500.00 or VW 501.01
-ACEA A2 or ACEA A3
-API Service SJ

Diesel Engine

-VW 505.01"

So in my case, using a VW spec oil IS NOT required. Straight from VW itself.

 

[moribundman]

quote:

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So in my case, using a VW spec oil IS NOT required. Straight from VW itself.

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Straight from VoA, not from Volkswagen AG. They are two independent companies. It was only last year that VoA decided to address the sludge issue which plagued some US VW motors. I haven't seen any 2005 VW manual, so I can't speak for VW, but I surely can direct you to a 2005 Audi A4 manual: http://forums.audiworld.com/12v/msgs/44915.phtml
They are adamant about using nothing but VW 502.00 spec oil, with a maximum of 0.5 quarts of A3 or SL spec top-off oil added between oil changes.

As for the manual saying ACEA A2 spec oil is okay, A2 is really an outdated spec.

[ April 16, 2005, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: moribundman ]

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by moribundman:

quote:

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So in my case, using a VW spec oil IS NOT required. Straight from VW itself.

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Straight from VoA, not from Volkswagen AG. They are two independent companies. It was only last year that VoA decided to address the sludge issue which plagued some US VW motors.

As for the manual saying ACEA A2 spec oil is okay, A2 is really an outdated spec.

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You're impossible to please. I post info right from the materials "corporate VW" authorized for publication and yet you still find some flaw. Geezus.

Also, the sludge issue was only on the 1.8T in the Passats on VW's side of the house. All other VW gas engines have no known sludge issues. If there were, we would've heard about it by now in some way, shape or form.

 

[99]

I was thumbing thru the manual for something else and low and behold there it was larger than life. Printed under the authority of Volkswagen AG and some other legal mumbo jumbo. Nuff said.

 

[Bob Miller]

quote: VW has gone absolutely bonkers with custom specifications by engine, by year, by phase of the moon. If you ask me, this is a sign of sloppy engineering of the engines by VW.

It appears that VW/AUDI is trying head off additional warranty claims through legal means. Their sludge monsters are severely hitting their bottom line.

No wonder their reliability ratings have headed south.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Miller:
quote: VW has gone absolutely bonkers with custom specifications by engine, by year, by phase of the moon. If you ask me, this is a sign of sloppy engineering of the engines by VW.

It appears that VW/AUDI is trying head off additional warranty claims through legal means. Their sludge monsters are severely hitting their bottom line.

No wonder their reliability ratings have headed south.

---

If your ratings are going bad in Australia do they head north?

 

[Losiho]

 

[moribundman]

99, I don't doubt that your '01 manual says just that, and of course you are entitled to accept the statements without questioning them in anyway, especially if your manual was printed under the authority of VW AG.

I just wish you'd take a look at this 2005 Audi manual. Notice how they say that not even all A3-rated oils are suitable for more than just topping off with no more than 0.5 qt between oil changes: http://forums.audiworld.com/12v/msgs/44915.phtml

The above is regarding the 2.0T motor, and I don't know what other current Audi manuals say. I can however tell you that my '96 manual is totally hypocritcal by saying API SF/SG oil is fine, while the consumer section at the end of the manual points out that VW 500.00 (There was no VW 502. in '96) must be used if the vehicle is operated in Europe. It literally says "If these oils (VW 500.00/501.00) are not available, the oils mentioned in the owner's manual can be used in an aexceptional case." That hypocrasy is laughable and not exactly confidence-inspiring.

Due to the 1.8T sludge issues , which seem to have occured only in the US with dealer-supplied oil and/or negligent VW/Audi owners, VW and Audi seem to now require across the board VW 502.00 spec oil for gassers, or they may well accept API SL oil in some other, non-turbo engines.


Does anybody here really believe that Audi and VW will ever have their US export vehicles equipped for LongLife service? I don't think it's going to happen, because it'll be way too complicated for the average consumer.