Oil recs for Corvette Z06 LS7

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: radchad3
PS: I am out of warranty so a different oil is not a problem for me.

Chad


If you're not worried about eventually poisoning your cats, Red Line 0w30.

But really, M1 5w30 will do the job.



Why do you think RL 0w30 would poison his cat converters? I suspect they'd die from old age long before that oil does anything.

 

[rrounds]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
You don't need high zddp. If you did I'm sure chev would have had Mobil mix something up for it.
If warranty isn't an issue then I suggest red line or amsoil or pennzoil or any name brand 30 grade. That engine is roller everything and not really overly hard on oil. Personally I'd use a conventional changed at 5000 miles so I could monitor oil colour and smell etc.

I'm sorry but the Fed's won't allow high ZDDP in oil's for cars today. Truck oil has been changed too, by order from the Fed's.

ZDDP lube parts in the engine other than the lifters, if you don't use oil ZDDP will not hurt your cats. If you burn a lot of oil then yes it can and will shorten the life of the cats. I use a mix of M1 0/50 racing oil and 0/20 AFE in my S2000 but if my engine used oil I would go with M1 0/40

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: rrounds
Originally Posted By: Clevy
You don't need high zddp. If you did I'm sure chev would have had Mobil mix something up for it.
If warranty isn't an issue then I suggest red line or amsoil or pennzoil or any name brand 30 grade. That engine is roller everything and not really overly hard on oil. Personally I'd use a conventional changed at 5000 miles so I could monitor oil colour and smell etc.

I'm sorry but the Fed's won't allow high ZDDP in oil's for cars today. Truck oil has been changed too, by order from the Fed's.

ZDDP lube parts in the engine other than the lifters, if you don't use oil ZDDP will not hurt your cats. If you burn a lot of oil then yes it can and will shorten the life of the cats. I use a mix of M1 0/50 racing oil and 0/20 AFE in my S2000 but if my engine used oil I would go with M1 0/40



Where did I mention lifters?
And zddp need heat to even activate. Then once it cools it leaves a sacrificial layer on the parts it's coated.
Now today we have the technology and science has given oil formulators more options. Those options come in the form of friction modifiers.
Now friction modifiers cost more,so they are used sparingly however in the API SN spec zddp has had a mandated reduction,and due to this reduction oil formulators have now had to use the more expensive friction modifiers,or titanium in place of their beloved and very cheap zddp.
Today's oils are generations ahead of yesteryears higher zddp formulations,and today's engines aren't built with flat tapper cams and crazy spring rates,which I might ad that friction modifiers are more than adequate to protect them even if they were still in use.
Today's engines use roller valve train and no longer need insane spring pressures to close the valve and prevent valve float at high rpm,therefore lubricants that are high in zddp in my view are yesterday's cheap tech. We are above and beyond cheap zddp and in my opinion it doesn't even need to be there anymore. The only reason it's even advertised is because the purchasing public has half an idea that they need it in large amounts,when the reality is that it's antiquated and its time has passed.
So the dinosaurs of the age will hold on to their zddp and complain that it's been lowered,all the while whispering that its a conspiracy to make engine last for less life,when the reality is that today's engines last longer than they ever have,using today's oils which have ingredients with big words and we don't quite understand what they do but obviously they perform better than their predecessor as proven by the larger occurrence of very high mile,perfectly running engines.
So lets get down to the roots here. That LS engine doesn't require lots of zddp since the whole point of zddp was to protect parts that no longer exist,and the parts that took their place seem to operate exceptionally on something else,that today's oils do contain,so once this all gets wrapped up together in a nice package and a bow on top we can sit back and ponder the obvious zddp conspiracy,and all those short lived engines out there that died without it.
Pardon,you mean there aren't any short lived engines out there that died because zddp was reduced..................
Where's my tin foil hat.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: radchad3
PS: I am out of warranty so a different oil is not a problem for me.

Chad


If you're not worried about eventually poisoning your cats, Red Line 0w30.

But really, M1 5w30 will do the job.



Why do you think RL 0w30 would poison his cat converters? I suspect they'd die from old age long before that oil does anything.


Yes, the operative word in my post was "eventually". RL has 1200ppm of Phosphorous, which is about 50% more than API SM/SN allow. For a given level of consumption where oil goes out the exhaust, a higher concentration of P means the cat will get poisoned faster. Whether this happens in 50k miles or 200k miles, I can't say due to differences in oil constumption from engine to engine and from one driving style to another.

I think that the lowered Phos levels in new API specs have been more for slightly decreasing the probability of poisoning a cat than they are for solving a pervasive problem where everybody's cat gets poisoned in one OCI. But since auto manufacturers have to warrant the emissions system for 150k miles, a 20% decrease in zddp in the oil may make it possible for a cat that was going to fail at 130k to get to 156k, thereby getting the auto maker off the hook for replacing that particular cat.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: rrounds
I'm sorry but the Fed's won't allow high ZDDP in oil's for cars today. Truck oil has been changed too, by order from the Fed's.

Which federal department explicitly limits ZDDP content in motor oils, and why do they have jurisdiction over Canada, Japan, and Europe?

Last time I checked, the API, ILSAC, and ACEA all regulated phosphorus content of licensed oils. I've also seen plenty of non-licensed oils (such as race oils) that have ridiculously high ZDDP content. How do the "feds" fit in with this?

Take a look at Valvoline VR-1, or some of the M1 racing stuff (let alone race only oils), or the ridiculously expensive Joe Gibbs offerings. They have far more ZDDP in them than any routine offering of the 1970s or 1980s. Besides, the API licensed oils of those days didn't have low limits on phosphorus. That didn't mean they poured in the ZDDP like sugar into a coffee, either. There were plenty of "weak" offerings in the day.

 

[dailydriver]

Another off the Sino-Mart shelf, oft suggested combo would be the ol' tried and true M1 0W-40, mixed with the M1 AFE 0W-20, to get something in the 3.3-3.5 HTHSV range.

BUT, as CATERHAM (and others) will point out, you are lowering the 0W-40's decent viscosity index by blending it with the weak(er) V.I. of the 0W-20.

I personally would run the Millers NanoDrive Racing combo (0W-30/5W-40) I am going to run in my LS1, in an LS7, if I were fortunate (and wealthy) enough to own one.
To me at least, it 'deserves' nothing less, even if it is "unnecessary, unneeded, excessive overkill" to almost all on here.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: rrounds
Originally Posted By: Clevy
You don't need high zddp. If you did I'm sure chev would have had Mobil mix something up for it.
If warranty isn't an issue then I suggest red line or amsoil or pennzoil or any name brand 30 grade. That engine is roller everything and not really overly hard on oil. Personally I'd use a conventional changed at 5000 miles so I could monitor oil colour and smell etc.

I'm sorry but the Fed's won't allow high ZDDP in oil's for cars today. Truck oil has been changed too, by order from the Fed's.

ZDDP lube parts in the engine other than the lifters, if you don't use oil ZDDP will not hurt your cats. If you burn a lot of oil then yes it can and will shorten the life of the cats. I use a mix of M1 0/50 racing oil and 0/20 AFE in my S2000 but if my engine used oil I would go with M1 0/40



Do you actually believe what you posted?

I believe I should change my career direction there is a lot of money to be made by fleecing consumers.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Another off the Sino-Mart shelf, oft suggested combo would be the ol' tried and true M1 0W-40, mixed with the M1 AFE 0W-20, to get something in the 3.3-3.5 HTHSV range.

BUT, as CATERHAM (and others) will point out, you are lowering the 0W-40's decent viscosity index by blending it with the weak(er) V.I. of the 0W-20.

I personally would run the Millers NanoDrive Racing combo (0W-30/5W-40) I am going to run in my LS1, in an LS7, if I were fortunate (and wealthy) enough to own one.
To me at least, it 'deserves' nothing less, even if it is "unnecessary, unneeded, excessive overkill" to almost all on here.

That's true, but it's still not a bad idea to blend AFE 0W-20 with M1 0W-40 to make a 0W-30. Even with a HTHSV as low as 3.3cP will still retain the VI at 180. Still better than most 0W-30s out there and you're raising the AW level higher than most 5W-30's including M1 5W-30.

Of course you're still better off blending in the Mobil made TGMO 0W-20 instead and actually raising the oil's net VI.

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Another off the Sino-Mart shelf, oft suggested combo would be the ol' tried and true M1 0W-40, mixed with the M1 AFE 0W-20, to get something in the 3.3-3.5 HTHSV range.

BUT, as CATERHAM (and others) will point out, you are lowering the 0W-40's decent viscosity index by blending it with the weak(er) V.I. of the 0W-20.

However if you blend the almighty M1 0w-40 with the Toyota genuine motor oil in the 0w-20 flavour you get a 30 grade with a very high viscosity index and quite possibly the finest 30 grade ever not made. And OP the tgmo is made by Mobil so blending them is technically using the same brand,only the label is different.
I've seen a few uoa posted here by guys who took Caterham's advice with the whole bending thing and IIRC the uoa were absolutely stellar.
In fact I think that particular blend,once the experts here figured out all the numbers what they ended up with had better numbers than most any 30 grade available on a shelf.
I refuse to spend any more money on oil until I dynamite a dent in this mountain of oil I have hoarded,but if I was going to actually pay for new stock I think the Caterham M1/TGMO blend would be my go to lubricants for everything b
With those 2 oils you could in theory,mix up a lubricant that would work on any engine built since about 1960. Except of course some kind of super special spec or some(not all) diesels.
You could even fine tune for example a 30 grade for use in the summer heat or winter cold by simply adding a larger percentage of one or the other.
Then of course you could use either or unblended for engines that require a 40 or a 20.
The only actual engines that need something other than what a person could mix up with those 2 oils are of course those tractor,I mean air cooled v-twins and maybe some diesels however I bet the M1 would work in a pinch,but for how long is speculation at best.

Cool thread guys

 

[dailydriver]

CATERHAM;

Slightly off topic (but not really, since the OP mentioned RL);

What do you think would be the actual best (read; MOST compatible/miscible, LEAST chance of either base stock, OR add pack 'clash') 0W-20 out there for thinning out Red Line's 0W-40??

I.e.; are the non-boutique (but still great) Idemitsu/Mazda high moly, and Mobil made TGMO high moly 0W-20s a better blend with the RL than the (somewhat unknown base stock/add pack chemistry) Sustina 0W-20??
Even though granted, the Sustina product would not only retain the RL's VI, but increase it, even more than the other two options.

 

[A_Harman]

I've always looked at RL's 0wXX oils as having similar chemistries, so why not just use their 0w30 if you want something between their 0w20 and 0w40?

 

[CATERHAM]

dailydriver, firstly base oils don't clash, it's just the additives that may not combine optimally.
That said, it's my opinion the net result will not be worse than the lesser of the two oils involved and I'm thinking of AW additives primarily.
Of those three 0W-20s I'd choose Sustina because it's formulated with the highest quality GTL equivalent base oil and has the lowest moly level. The end result will be not just the highest finished VI but also the highest natural base oil VI and the major moly contribution being from RL.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I've always looked at RL's 0wXX oils as having similar chemistries, so why not just use their 0w30 if you want something between their 0w20 and 0w40?

As far as I can tell RL 0W oils are identical except for the VII content.

dailydriver has already tried RL 0W-30 blended with Sustina 0W-20.
I think the idea of using RL 0W-40 (VI 197) and blending with the ultra high VI 0W-20 oils mentioned is to have a 0W-30 with the highest 200+ VI possible.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I've always looked at RL's 0wXX oils as having similar chemistries, so why not just use their 0w30 if you want something between their 0w20 and 0w40?

As far as I can tell RL 0W oils are identical except for the VII content.

dailydriver has already tried RL 0W-30 blended with Sustina 0W-20.
I think the idea of using RL 0W-40 (VI 197) and blending with the ultra high VI 0W-20 oils mentioned is to have a 0W-30 with the highest 200+ VI possible.


Yes, I forgot about the improvement in VI as a motivator. But still, RL 0w30 has a VI of 183, which isn't shabby...

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I've always looked at RL's 0wXX oils as having similar chemistries, so why not just use their 0w30 if you want something between their 0w20 and 0w40?


Or just mix them as you see fit. Red Line encourages you to do it.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I've always looked at RL's 0wXX oils as having similar chemistries, so why not just use their 0w30 if you want something between their 0w20 and 0w40?

As far as I can tell RL 0W oils are identical except for the VII content.

dailydriver has already tried RL 0W-30 blended with Sustina 0W-20.
I think the idea of using RL 0W-40 (VI 197) and blending with the ultra high VI 0W-20 oils mentioned is to have a 0W-30 with the highest 200+ VI possible.


Yes, I forgot about the improvement in VI as a motivator. But still, RL 0w30 has a VI of 183, which isn't shabby...



Renewable Lube 0w30 has an even higher VI -- almost 200.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I've always looked at RL's 0wXX oils as having similar chemistries, so why not just use their 0w30 if you want something between their 0w20 and 0w40?

As far as I can tell RL 0W oils are identical except for the VII content.

dailydriver has already tried RL 0W-30 blended with Sustina 0W-20.
I think the idea of using RL 0W-40 (VI 197) and blending with the ultra high VI 0W-20 oils mentioned is to have a 0W-30 with the highest 200+ VI possible.


Yes, I forgot about the improvement in VI as a motivator. But still, RL 0w30 has a VI of 183, which isn't shabby...



Renewable Lube 0w30 has an even higher VI -- almost 200.

Well let's not exaggerate, RL 0W-40's VI of 197 is almost 200, RLI 0W-30's VI is 193. It's also worth noting that RLI retains it's 193 VI in service (and despite some fuel dilution) based on UOA's from Ali Haas' Enzo.

 

[rrounds]

Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: rrounds
Originally Posted By: Clevy
You don't need high zddp. If you did I'm sure chev would have had Mobil mix something up for it.
If warranty isn't an issue then I suggest red line or amsoil or pennzoil or any name brand 30 grade. That engine is roller everything and not really overly hard on oil. Personally I'd use a conventional changed at 5000 miles so I could monitor oil colour and smell etc.

I'm sorry but the Fed's won't allow high ZDDP in oil's for cars today. Truck oil has been changed too, by order from the Fed's.

ZDDP lube parts in the engine other than the lifters, if you don't use oil ZDDP will not hurt your cats. If you burn a lot of oil then yes it can and will shorten the life of the cats. I use a mix of M1 0/50 racing oil and 0/20 AFE in my S2000 but if my engine used oil I would go with M1 0/40



Do you actually believe what you posted?

I believe I should change my career direction there is a lot of money to be made by fleecing consumers.

Yes I do and here is just one mag that says the same thing

"Recent Oil Formulation Changes
Auto manufacturers have been required by federal law to warrant specific components of the emissions control system on any '95-or-newer car or light-duty truck for the balance of eight years or 80,000 miles--including catalytic converters. In that time, it has been determined that phosphorus in exhaust can negatively react with the converter's active catalysts, rendering it inoperable. The cost of component replacement cannot only fall upon the manufacturer, its failure can also create a vehicle that excessively emits pollutants until said repair is made.

The largest amount of phosphorus inside an engine is in its oil. A compound molecule named Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate (ZDDP) is comprised mostly of zinc and phosphorus, and has long been a common antiwear oil additive. ZDDP offers key frictional-heat-activated qualities that form a sacrificial chemical barrier on components that are under continuous high-pressure contact. While much of the oil would literally be squeezed from between the components in these conditions, ZDDP prevents the metal-on-metal contact that could otherwise result. A classic example would be a camshaft lobe and lifter.

Since phosphorus has been proven to negatively affect catalytic converters, auto manufacturers and oil companies are working to find a suitable antiwear additive to replace ZDDP. But that has been a major task. So, until it happens, the analysis organizations have imposed a temporary limit on the maximum amount of ZDDP in oil--no more than 0.01 percent by weight. It appears this reduction has had a major effect on the hobby since its enactment in January 2004.

Read more: http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/hppp_0606_understanding_motor_oil/viewall.html

and this is from M1 web site
Question:
Has Zinc Been Removed from Motor Oils?
I am having thrust bearing failure in a 4.6 modified performance engine. This is a street/strip engine. Many of my friends are having the same problem. I think it is the result of the removal of zinc from the oil. I was told by two separate racing engine builders that the EPA ordered the removal of the zinc from over-the-counter motor oil. I use Mobil 1 5W-20. Is this true and do you think a zinc additive might help?
-- Randy Lovejoy, Americas, GA

Answer:
The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added through a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-5 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines. However, there are Mobil 1 synthetic oils which have a higher level of phosphorus (phos) and can be used in engines in racing or high performance applications; see the attached table.

So even M1 says to use there race oil for more ZDDP for more protection of things other than lifters. If I drove a Corolla I would get off the shelf oil, but I don't so I'll use the oil that has done a good job of protecting my engine.

ROD

 

[Coprolite]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't fly rrounds. You can't say that the feds won't allow high ZDDP. They only require that the emissions systems have a warranty. Any other actions are indirect. If it wasn't allowed, you wouldn't be able to buy it.

 

[Garak]

Absolutely, as I mentioned in my ignored post.

I don't see the feds rounding up M1 racing or VR-1 oils. Red Line isn't sold out of "hemp" shops or speakeasies, either. So, where is this prohibition?