I am fairly new to this site. I am wondering how long should oil last with a bypass filter? Is it true oil does not wear out, but the contaminents are why we have to change it? Theoretically, can one run oil forever if it is filtered properly?
oil life
- Thread starter blueglide88
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Well, maybe forever isn't quite right. With the routine changes that tp type filters require, you're beefing up the additives as you go. So it's more like you're exchanging the oil at a greatly reduced rate from normal. Ralph has reported doing many ..many miles (like 200k, I think) without dropping the sump.
It's not a panacea for everything. The oil has to be suited to the engine/service duty. Naturally UOA is recommended my many to determine if all it going well in any extended drain situation.
It's not a panacea for everything. The oil has to be suited to the engine/service duty. Naturally UOA is recommended my many to determine if all it going well in any extended drain situation.
Has nothing to do with a TP filter.
Additives get depleted over time.
Viscosity changes over time.
It doesn't matter which filter you use, these 2 things must be taken into account.
A bypass filter will:
Reduce the amount of waste oil
Reduce the amount of additives used over time
Reduce the viscosity change over time
Remove some of the solid particles that contribute to wear
Remove some of the water
Remove some of the fuel
Remove some some of the oxidation/nitration.
But in the end, you still have to change filters, I don't care if it's a piece of "sh*t paper or any other material.
change filters and you will:
Help renew viscosity
Increase additive package
Keep H2O in check
keep Nit/OXD in check
And finally allow the oil to be run in the engine indefinately. Depdending on what type of oil and how long your run the filters will determine how long an oil change interval.
Additives get depleted over time.
Viscosity changes over time.
It doesn't matter which filter you use, these 2 things must be taken into account.
A bypass filter will:
Reduce the amount of waste oil
Reduce the amount of additives used over time
Reduce the viscosity change over time
Remove some of the solid particles that contribute to wear
Remove some of the water
Remove some of the fuel
Remove some some of the oxidation/nitration.
But in the end, you still have to change filters, I don't care if it's a piece of "sh*t paper or any other material.
change filters and you will:
Help renew viscosity
Increase additive package
Keep H2O in check
keep Nit/OXD in check
And finally allow the oil to be run in the engine indefinately. Depdending on what type of oil and how long your run the filters will determine how long an oil change interval.
I've been reading posts on this site for some time and here's what comes to mind concerning "oil life".
1.) Depending upon the type of oil (group 1-3, and some pao's unless I'm mistaken) there's limitations due to oil thining as result of viscosity index improver shearing. With that said, the more viscosity index improvers (the wider the span between the "x"w-"x"), the greater the potential shear thining, and thus less protection at normal operating temperature.
2.) Unless the engine's bearings were to constantly be in the state of hydrodynamic lubrication, that is to say that the outer bearing surface and the rotating body within its circunference were to remain fully seperated by a film of oil, than sacrificial addivies will be called upon. These additives often function synergistically, enabling multiple functions, say as anti-wear and extreme pressure, or anti-wear and tbn, etc.. This synergy has been stated as a good reason to not add over-the-counter additives. check-out the states of lubrication link that's located on the BITOG home page if you haven't already, as well as the link on additives - lucas oil demo, also found on the home page.
3.) Continuing with additive depletion, there's consideration with the oil's TBN value that comes from the alkili mentals (calcium rings a bell). This is linked to corrosion protection and detergency if I recall correctly. The TBN value of an oil starts out high, say 7-10 plus, and gradually drops as acids from combustion byproducts in the blow-by gases mix with any water present in the oil. Short trips and cold oil temperatures allow for condensation in the oil, slowly if ever to boil out, allowing the forming elements of nitrogen and possible sulfur to combine with the water, creating acids.
There's probably more factors concerning "oil life" but I can't think of any right now.
Depending upon how often one has to top-up due to oil burning and/or leakage, as well as changing the filters, one may be adding a sufficient amount of additives to enable the oil to "recover" to such a degree as to enable it to remain in service. As with any OCI extention, oil analysis becomes an increasingly wise thing to consider. With analysis all the above can be tracked, and even some of the more subtle things like a slow coolant leak that leads to oil contaimination at best, and potentially serious damage to engine components at worst, could be checked. And the test results could help put you at ease with your discisions, and if you're willing to share, will help to educate the rest of us.
1.) Depending upon the type of oil (group 1-3, and some pao's unless I'm mistaken) there's limitations due to oil thining as result of viscosity index improver shearing. With that said, the more viscosity index improvers (the wider the span between the "x"w-"x"), the greater the potential shear thining, and thus less protection at normal operating temperature.
2.) Unless the engine's bearings were to constantly be in the state of hydrodynamic lubrication, that is to say that the outer bearing surface and the rotating body within its circunference were to remain fully seperated by a film of oil, than sacrificial addivies will be called upon. These additives often function synergistically, enabling multiple functions, say as anti-wear and extreme pressure, or anti-wear and tbn, etc.. This synergy has been stated as a good reason to not add over-the-counter additives. check-out the states of lubrication link that's located on the BITOG home page if you haven't already, as well as the link on additives - lucas oil demo, also found on the home page.
3.) Continuing with additive depletion, there's consideration with the oil's TBN value that comes from the alkili mentals (calcium rings a bell). This is linked to corrosion protection and detergency if I recall correctly. The TBN value of an oil starts out high, say 7-10 plus, and gradually drops as acids from combustion byproducts in the blow-by gases mix with any water present in the oil. Short trips and cold oil temperatures allow for condensation in the oil, slowly if ever to boil out, allowing the forming elements of nitrogen and possible sulfur to combine with the water, creating acids.
There's probably more factors concerning "oil life" but I can't think of any right now.
Depending upon how often one has to top-up due to oil burning and/or leakage, as well as changing the filters, one may be adding a sufficient amount of additives to enable the oil to "recover" to such a degree as to enable it to remain in service. As with any OCI extention, oil analysis becomes an increasingly wise thing to consider. With analysis all the above can be tracked, and even some of the more subtle things like a slow coolant leak that leads to oil contaimination at best, and potentially serious damage to engine components at worst, could be checked. And the test results could help put you at ease with your discisions, and if you're willing to share, will help to educate the rest of us.
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No ...but that doesn't mean that tp is a bad thing
Is this a anti-tp thing?
Curious Kid --- I sense a scholar here
Let's just say (to all your points)
I'll agree with forever, as long as the filters are changed on a regular basis and the engine is driven to full operating temp.
Has anyone ever seen a bad UOA from a by-pass application at any milage?
One reason for chaning the whole sump is because at 20k to 50k it's easy to do once in a while. Why not if it makes you feel good.
Has anyone ever seen a bad UOA from a by-pass application at any milage?
One reason for chaning the whole sump is because at 20k to 50k it's easy to do once in a while. Why not if it makes you feel good.
The paradise garage synthetic study indicates that some synths can thicken over time, which to my thinking wouldn't be prevented by a bypass, unless the bypass was a TP which caused you to add significant quantities of new oil periodically.
Thus there would be a reason to do a full oil change occasionally. ATVL you should do a UOA occasionally to track the condition.
Thus there would be a reason to do a full oil change occasionally. ATVL you should do a UOA occasionally to track the condition.
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Here's a UOA that may interest you. It appears that this member is using his MG for longer drains. 5k is a little more in line with a synth's inherant longevity. 5k on tp and still warm 
I think like anywhere else, common sense should prevail. Ralph RECOMMENDS 2k for 8 cyl, 3k for 6 cyl and 4k for 4 cyl. The real issue is how much crap does YOUR engine put out, which will determine how quickly the filter will clog and need replacement.
The same engine in two different cars may differ if the rings are worn in one allowing a lot of blowby and soot getting in the oil or similar issues. The TP is a much finer filter and traps that stuff quickly thus potentially clogging quicker.
The key here is "potentially".
I have been reading about an "oil spot test" which it seems would be very useful in this situation to allow MG owners to quickly and easily track their filter condition. Comments on that?
The same engine in two different cars may differ if the rings are worn in one allowing a lot of blowby and soot getting in the oil or similar issues. The TP is a much finer filter and traps that stuff quickly thus potentially clogging quicker.
The key here is "potentially".
I have been reading about an "oil spot test" which it seems would be very useful in this situation to allow MG owners to quickly and easily track their filter condition. Comments on that?
The blotter test appears to be a measure of particulates in the oil. The reason this would be useful with the TP bypass is that as the TP filter begins to clog, the quantity of oil through the filter should begin to drop and therefore the particulates should start to rise.
By just looking at the oil drop test you should be able to see the oil progress from virgin to "dirty". As long as the TP filter is doing its job the oil should not "get dirty" thus if it does, it's time for a filter change.
By just looking at the oil drop test you should be able to see the oil progress from virgin to "dirty". As long as the TP filter is doing its job the oil should not "get dirty" thus if it does, it's time for a filter change.
John, I tried searching for the "blotter test" through google to see exactly what it was a while ago and couldn't find it. Is this basically putting a drop of oil on a piece of paper? And would the particulates make the edges of the drop darker or the center of the drop? This would be analogous to a coffee stain on a piece of paper, right?
Yes that's correct. I have found a couple of people discussing it here on this site somewhere, not sure where exactly. I have never tried it myself but intend to start at least trying to use it to see what I can figure out.
I just did a search of "blotter test" on this forum (all forums) and got 28 hits. I guess I have my reading cut out for me.
I just did a search of "blotter test" on this forum (all forums) and got 28 hits. I guess I have my reading cut out for me.
I have a 6.0 PSD and have gone 5K miles w/a Frantz. The Frantz canister still gets as hot at 5K miles as it does when a new roll of TP is installed.quote:
Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Here's a UOA that may interest you. It appears that this member is using his MG for longer drains. 5k is a little more in line with a synth's inherant longevity. 5k on tp and still warm
The question I would have relating to TP filters and long mileage before TP changes is:
Are the aditives being depleted hense the oil not doing the job as it should. It would seem like there is a trade-off on miles driven, oil quality, cost of operation, the filter not heating up.
My goal is to keep the high cost maintenance at bay as long as possible which keeps more funds in my pocket. With oil costing from $1 to $8 per quart and PT at $0.80 the cost is quite reasonable for long term clean oil.
One thing I've notices on the Bypass Filter thread, oil coolers aren't mentioned. Seems to me that oil "Cleanness", oil temperature, and oil quality are the concerns we have for long term ingine reliablity.
Any comments?
Are the aditives being depleted hense the oil not doing the job as it should. It would seem like there is a trade-off on miles driven, oil quality, cost of operation, the filter not heating up.
My goal is to keep the high cost maintenance at bay as long as possible which keeps more funds in my pocket. With oil costing from $1 to $8 per quart and PT at $0.80 the cost is quite reasonable for long term clean oil.
One thing I've notices on the Bypass Filter thread, oil coolers aren't mentioned. Seems to me that oil "Cleanness", oil temperature, and oil quality are the concerns we have for long term ingine reliablity.
Any comments?
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Blotter testing appears to be a valid technique in determing oil condition. I don't know how to integrate that with the life of a tp filter ..but..I guess it could be a judge of when to do your sump dump
I do agree with your assesment on varied performance/longevity of a tp filter. Many of Ralph's estimates are generic and cover many bases that may or may not apply to your particular situation/application. He's confirmed that the life of the tp is variable and that the "warm" test is all that's needed to determine suitability for continued use. If I were to use this type of filtering, my nature would insist that I find when the tp was rendered useless and then work backwards from there ..probably to 75% of that figure. A check every 500 miles on the second tp filter should give you a good idea of where that figure is since one could assume that the first filter will get some residuals from the previous OCI. Oils and engines have come a long way since the Frantz first came on the scene.
I do agree with your assesment on varied performance/longevity of a tp filter. Many of Ralph's estimates are generic and cover many bases that may or may not apply to your particular situation/application. He's confirmed that the life of the tp is variable and that the "warm" test is all that's needed to determine suitability for continued use. If I were to use this type of filtering, my nature would insist that I find when the tp was rendered useless and then work backwards from there ..probably to 75% of that figure. A check every 500 miles on the second tp filter should give you a good idea of where that figure is since one could assume that the first filter will get some residuals from the previous OCI. Oils and engines have come a long way since the Frantz first came on the scene.
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Aside from those towing or racing (or being "spirited" in driving style), the problem most oils see is never heating up enough. Studies have shown that the total warm up time for the engine to reach full thermal saturation is about 15-20 minutes. Most driving events don't exceed that by much on a daily basis. I didn't believe this at first when our membership asserted this ..it was then confirmed by a study quoted by the good Dr. Haas (AEHaas)
Of members who do monitor their oil temps, many report an oil temp of 200° +/- 20° (again if they aren't being "spirited"). There are exceptions, naturally.
The oil coolers that use the cooling system (liquid/oil) are the best, since both the coolant and the oil are at their optimal at about the same temp. They tend to buffer each other a good bit ..smoothing out the spikes.
Air exchangers, without a thermostat, aside from being less efficient - will exacerbate any moisture retention ..fuel ect by delaying any purging via evaporation. So unless your routine daily drive is of a decent length to compensate for the cooler oil temp when unstressed ..you're merely adding to the problems that shorten its useful life.
The liquid/oil cooler are a good thing. I use them on my jeeps and am trying to adapt this unit from a Crown Vic on one of my vehicles
This is the type I use on my jeeps.
Thanks for the information on engne oil coolers. My installation has a liquid/oil cooler connected to the radiator. I have considered adding an air/oil cooler after the raidator cooler. From this discussion, that looks like not that great idea unless a thermo unit is added to limit flow when oil is cold.
I do see a potential need when towing long distances. Seems like it would help stabalize temperatures up mountain passes. However, from what has been said here, perhaps a super sized radiator would be the best option.
I do see a potential need when towing long distances. Seems like it would help stabalize temperatures up mountain passes. However, from what has been said here, perhaps a super sized radiator would be the best option.
The Motor Guard is the best submicronic bypass filter but all it can do is clean oil. For maximum equipment life your oil must never be allowed to get dirty plus your equipment needs the right amount of new oil. If you don't change the filter often enough to add enough new oil you will need to drain the oil.
I drove my 84 Subaru 240,000 miles. It had no full flow filter. I changed the TP filter about once a year or about 12,000 miles. I averaged an oil drain every 62,000 miles. If I had changed the TP every 4,000 miles I doubt that I would have needed to drain the oil. I probably would have done fine with 6,000 mile filter changes. There are no magic oils. If you don't take care of the bypass filter the oil will need to be drained to make up for it. Every engine has it's own perfect filter change interval. It is better to change the filter too often than not enough. People a lot smarter than me determined that adding new oil at filter change is enough to keep the additives up to the correct amount. That doesn't mean a year or two between filter changes.
Ralph
I drove my 84 Subaru 240,000 miles. It had no full flow filter. I changed the TP filter about once a year or about 12,000 miles. I averaged an oil drain every 62,000 miles. If I had changed the TP every 4,000 miles I doubt that I would have needed to drain the oil. I probably would have done fine with 6,000 mile filter changes. There are no magic oils. If you don't take care of the bypass filter the oil will need to be drained to make up for it. Every engine has it's own perfect filter change interval. It is better to change the filter too often than not enough. People a lot smarter than me determined that adding new oil at filter change is enough to keep the additives up to the correct amount. That doesn't mean a year or two between filter changes.
Ralph
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