Oil for new Subaru FA20

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I have a Toyota/Scion FRS with the new FA20 subaru engine. I'm normally very consvervative buying cars with a proven track record, but this car hooked me. However the subaru engine gives quite a bit of apprehension. The manual calls for Toyota 0W-20 but says the use of a higher viscosity "may be better suited if vehicle is operated under extreme load conditions." It also calls for 3750 mile OCI which is low for 2013MY. Growing up in the flat cold midwest I was a firm believer that the majority of engine wear occurs at startup and the new lightweight oils are great. But I live in a very hilly area of PA now and consider my daily commute an extreme load. Engines just don't last as long here as they do in flat areas. Very steep multiple hills. People blow out clucth slave cylinders and pressure plates fail at an alarming rate in this area. I tend to cruise at a relatively low RPM, sometimes its hard not to find yourself lugging up a hill in too high of a gear. The other thing is this is the first Boxer engine I have found to recommend 0W-20. Right now I have SuperTech 5W-20 in it, Walmart is the only place open in the middle of the night. It is very inconvenient for me to get to the dealer as I live quite a distance and work nights. Also with these new GL-5 requirements and the big reduction of moly I have trouble swallowing the extra expensive for the OEM Toyota oil, there is no "proof" they are using the new "super" moly compound. I understand this site is very data driven after reading thru posts but I am dealing with a brand new engine design and a boxer at that. So some speculation is required, I think its also the first DI boxer engine every made. If I were to go out of my way for an OEM oil I would probably want the Mazda High Moly 0w-20. As my goal is not an extended OCI, rather high engine lifespan/ lowest wear. I know subaru engines can be quirky (especially first year models.) I want this thing to last me 200k+. So the question is do I stick with SuperTech 5w-20, find something else at Walmart, or track down the new Mazda high Moly 0W-20? Any advice is appreciated.
 
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If your gonna change at 3750 most would tell you to use a good Dino A lot like penzoil yellow bottle or mobil clean 5000. A5/20 and a 0/20 both have similar characteristics at operating temps just the 0 will flow at -20 degrees a LITTLE bit faster so that would make no difference
 
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Congrats on the frs. If I were picking an oil for this car, oh and trust me I'm only a moment of weakness away from a brz, I'd consider Synpower/napa. I don't think you necessarily need a big shot of super moly for a oil to protect your engine from wear and make the 200k mark. Probably no problem running a light 5w-30 in the summer either. The short factory oci means any decent oil you pick will get you there. QSUD would be a solid value. If you gotta have the moly go with the Mazda oil and pay the difference. With the "dual" injector setup I think this engine is a distance runner over DI only setups. Change your stock style air filter every year, and stay away from aftermarket intakes. High tier gas and run a shot of regane/techron once a year prior to oil change. Read up on Subaru oil filters and their specs. You should be in good shape for the long run.. Oh and keep your rpms up, that boxer engine was built to rev!
 
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Isn't the oci 7,500 miles? There isn't much uoa data here on the FR-S/BRZ, but there is a bit on FT86club.com. Of course, most of them don't have much mileage but there is a uoa thread with a few different people posting. There have been a couple of uoa's with some fuel, but the used viscosity of a 5W-30 may be the same as a 0W-20 with some shearing. Although the Pennzoil Ultra 5W-30 uoa's posted here from WRX's have been pretty impressive IMO. I would look for an oil with a lower NOACK and higher HTHS over one that's thinner at start-up. Yeah, keep 'er revved! drive Oh, and welcome -Dennis
 
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Mobil 1's 0w40 and call it a day! flows good at start up and will provide the protection the engine needs as you rev it to redline (which I would do daily, if I had that car). Rest assured that the block will keep spinning happily until 200k. It's the rest of the body that you need to worry about.
 
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Welcome to the Forum!!!!!!!!! I'd run the Toyota 0W-20 in the cold / harsh winters and blend in 1 or 2 quarts of Mobil 1 0W-40 in the summer.
 
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Unless you track the car, I'd run QSUD 0w20 for the 7500 mile/7.5 month interval as suggested by the owner's manual. I know the FA20 engine is new, so theyre is little to no UOA data out there yet, but other than the turbo 2.5 engines, Subarus seem to be fairly easy on oil.
 
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Originally Posted By: bluesubie
I would look for an oil with a lower NOACK and higher HTHS over one that's thinner at start-up. -Dennis
Good advice. 100hp/L can be tough on oil. If your wally still stocks Pennz Ultimate, run 5w-30 summer and 5w-20 winter if you feel you need to. $10 rebate right now as well. I ran PU 10w-30 year round here in Virginia with temps down into high teens on a few mornings. I never noticed a slow crank or felt I was doing any harm. (subaru says 10w-30 is ok down to ~5*F for my car) PA is a big state, and depending on where you are you might see a lot colder temps than I do, of course. If your really worried about cold starts get a engine block heater, they are something like $50 from subaru/toyota.
 

regal55

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I'm not really convinced that lower zinc and phosphorus that the newer specs require based on the epa's influence is the right direction for me. I expect 200k-300k out of an engine and the levels of Zn & P and even moly in the latest stuff we can buy at walmart seem just too low compared to what was available and proven over the last few decades. I've always use to use Rotella in my cars but this car requires too low of a viscosity for Rotella, is there anything like Rotella that preferably doesn't meet the latest specs and has the older Zn, P, and Moly levels for long term wear ? Or should I be looking at an additive package now days? Thanks
 
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Once again - welcome Modern GF-5 oils have organic additives which don't show up in a $20 UOA. Remember ZDDP is not just an anti-wear additive it's also an anti-oxidant, and the anti-oxidation function can be substituted with other chemistry. Don't play amateur oil formulator, look at the actual performance specs, not the chemistry. A GF-5 oil which meets ACEA A1/B1 or A5/B5 will provide excellent wear protection. Take a look at the Lubrizol relative performance tool for an idea of exactly how good an ACEA lubricant has to be. For warranty reasons I'd stay away from 5w20 oils. There's no real reason not to use 0w20, and Walmart carries Mobil 1 AFE 0w20. You can order it on the website and pick it up at the store if your local store doesn't stock it, every one around me does though. AFE 0w20 is what my Mom will be using in her new 2013 Legacy 2.5i (FB25 engine). Some Walmarts carry Pennzoil Platinum 0w20, which is also excellent. I'm sure you'll love the car.
 
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Originally Posted By: regal55
I'm not really convinced that lower zinc and phosphorus that the newer specs require based on the epa's influence is the right direction for me. I expect 200k-300k out of an engine and the levels of Zn & P and even moly in the latest stuff we can buy at walmart seem just too low compared to what was available and proven over the last few decades. I've always use to use Rotella in my cars but this car requires too low of a viscosity for Rotella, is there anything like Rotella that preferably doesn't meet the latest specs and has the older Zn, P, and Moly levels for long term wear ? Or should I be looking at an additive package now days? Thanks
Ah, this is similar to your post on FT86club.com in the Eneos thread:
Originally Posted By: regal;954410
I just don't get paying this much for an oil that has very low zinc, phosphate, and moly. I guess you get to feel good about meeting the EPA's latest requirements and don't care about engine longevity trading off the car before the end of warranty. But some of us do care about long term engine wear. A car with a worn out engine at 75k does much worse to the environment than proper oil chemistry. My engine isn't going to be run on an un-proven oil like this, just too risky and lacking key ingredients that have shown to work the last several decades, sorry.
I guess you'll need to use a race oil since those have higher levels of moly and ZDDP. Of course, you're not going to be able to find those at Wal-Mart. -Dennis
 
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I'd use m1 afe 0w20 because your limiting yourself to Walmart . Is 3750 the severe interval? Sounds too conservative to me. Don't forget you can always get something shipped to your home if you want to shop online.
 
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Originally Posted By: regal55
I've always use to use Rotella in my cars but this car requires too low of a viscosity for Rotella, is there anything like Rotella that preferably doesn't meet the latest specs and has the older Zn, P, and Moly levels for long term wear ?
If you made up your mind to ignore the SN and GF-5 specifications for the oil, I am not sure what the point is about worrying about the viscosity specification. If one wishes to follow the manual and the specifications, either for warranty purposes or because one trusts the manufacturer and their recommendations, follow them. If not, run whatever floats your boat, regardless of viscosity or spec. Personally, I would run what is specified, at least while under warranty.
 

regal55

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Originally Posted By: gpshumway
Once again - welcome Modern GF-5 oils have organic additives which don't show up in a $20 UOA. Remember ZDDP is not just an anti-wear additive it's also an anti-oxidant, and the anti-oxidation function can be substituted with other chemistry. Don't play amateur oil formulator, look at the actual performance specs, not the chemistry.
I'm an old ChE so I have some idea of what's going on even though I worked in a completely different industry than petroleum. MHO is its always best to stick to proven methods, the new spec's are just too new and convenient. I could explain but basically it boils down to we engineers are human and under strong pressures from politics to bean counters and just like everyone else we make mistakes and(hopefully)learn from them. But most important in today's economy 200k miles is not on the auto industry's radar. From what I can tell researching the UOA's here it looks like Redline and Motul 300V would be two oils that have ample amounts of ZDDP and Moly so I guess ordering thru the internet may be my new method to get oil for this brand new engine and one less thing to worry about. Thanks for this site and people sharing their UOA's, very nice.
 
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It's your car of course. 300v and Redline are both excellent oils, but neither is API or ILSAC certified, so there's a risk of having your warranty claim denied in the event of engine trouble. You may have some idea what's going on, but as an engineer you should also be aware of the dangers of "just enough" knowledge. If we always stayed with proven methods innovation would never happen. Progress requires taking some risk, but in this case the progress has been gradual and painstaking. Note that oils like Fuchs Titan GT1 exist which are completely free of Zinc, yet show excellent wear control. GT1 was introduced in 2003, if it were an inferior product, you'd think ten years would be enough to figure that out. http://www.fuchs-oil.com/index.php?id=742&type=0 Fuch's website stinks, but Tune Canada has their documents for download here: http://www.tunecanada.com/fuchs_titan_gt1_xtl_0w20_premium_oil_4l 200k mi is absolutely on the radar of auto makers, just take a look at the Ford Ecoboost dyno/Baja/teardown videos. It may look like a marketing stunt, but every engine design gets that level of scrutiny many times over during the development process, including tests where oil is part of the DOE. The functional tests for valve-train wear have been the same for many years and involve an engine run on a dynomometer followed by tear down and inspection. While the test methods have remained the same, the acceptance criteria has consistently gotten tougher, either through increasing test duration or decreasing wear rates. This has happened concurrently with the reduction of Zn and P in the formulations. Plenty of Subarus went 200k miles on GF-2 conventional oil. Use the Lubrizol relative performance tool to compare the wear requirements of API SL or ILSAC GF-2 to those of ACEA A5/B5-10, the requirements are much tougher today. http://origin-qps.onstreammedia.com/orig...p/pc/index.html Just some food for thought.
 
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You may be interested to know that in Australia the only Toyota model spec'd for the 0W-20 grade is your car. The car was designed around this oil and there will be no benefit in using anything heavier. Stick to the Toyota OEM 0W-20 oil or the Mazda high Moly 0W-20 that you mentioned would be a good choice as well. Buy a case of it if you're not near the dealer that often.
 
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like the man said, it's your car--so if you want to ignore all of the advice my suggestion would be GC = German Castrol 0-30. If you go that route, AAP & AZ carry it, and it says Made in Germany in the lower right hand portion of the back of the label. It is SL rated Love your car BTW
 
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