Oil for a 2002 VW 1.4l TDI PD engine

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Hi, What would you suggest as an oil for a 2002 1.4 litre (3-cyl) TDI, PD injectors, no DPF (but it does have a catalytic converter), fixed-vane turbo, 55kW (75HP) engine? I've run Castrol EDGE 5W-30 (the LL version) at the manufacturer specified 1yr/15,000km 'fixed' interval, and replaced it approximately yearly, usually at around 15,000km, for the past 4 years or so. I think I've added only ~0.5l (to max. mark) at ~10,000km, since the last change. The car's sometimes driven on very short trips, 2,10,20km, but sometimes (especially in the winter), on trips of ~150km. The car is in Poland, and the winters where it is aren't very cold -- night time lows are maybe -5C, daytime highs around 0C, maybe a few times a year the lows get to -15C or even -20C, with the highs around -5C or -10C. The car has ~220,000km on the odometer, though I bought it at ~150,000km, and it came into the country with I think ~135,000km. It had a replacement timing belt and unit injectors installed around then. Really, it might even have done 420,000+km to date, who knows, though the computer and odometer matched when I bought it. The engine has been somewhat clakkety at times lately, and I've been thinking of switching to 5W-40, something like Orlen MaxExpert C3 5W-40, which is fairly inexpensive (compared to say, "Motul 8100 X-Clean 5W-40", or "Motul Specific 505.01 502.00 5W-40"), and doesn't look bad to me. There is some info on it here: http://www.orlenoil.pl/EN/OurOffer/...t=PLATINUM%20MaxExpert%20C3%205W-40.aspx, and a VOA (though about 4 years old) here: https://www.oil-club.ru/forum/topic/12894-orlenoil-platinum-maxexpert-c3-5w-40-svezhee/. I've also considered "Shell Helix Ultra ECT C2/C3 0W-30" (which is the same as Pennzoil Euro LX in North America) mainly because of the short trips, though it's a bit thinner, and am not sure how it would work out over a year of use. The price is not much higher. So, what characteristics would you look for in and oil for this engine and type of use? What oil(s) would you suggest and why? Please show all work smile , and more technical and scientific answers get more marks. smile Thanks in advance.
 
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In the US, when the PD motor was offered (starting in 2004), it did require 505.01, which its justification was to protect the camshafts on the PD engine, which drove which pump-injector. But, there was been debate of effectiveness of 505.01 vs using a HDEO oil. (ACEA E7/9) One thing people noticed was 505.01 initially shearing and then its viscosity was regained by particulate matter loading. I would probably look for a 5w40 HDEO
 

mikecz

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Yes, I've read about people using Mobil Delvac oils, etc., in North America. Was what you said about 505.01 with 5W-40 or 5W-30? There was also 506.01, a long life spec if I recall correctly, that I think specified HTHS min. of 2.9, and I thought that perhaps some of the oils that people were having problems with in North America might have been to that spec, but who knows; it all seemed odd. I'm a bit concerned about going away from the specs. There are many 504.00/507.00 options, but they're mostly 5W-30 and some 0W-30, which has me a bit concerned, with this being an older and possibly looser engine (if that makes sense). Since they're to a 'newer' spec, I figured that the oils might be 'better'. They are recommended by oil manufacturers for this engine: Mobil recommends their ESP 5W-30, Shell recommends their AV-L 0W-30 (same oil as ECT C2/C3 I read). Since there is no DPF, I was looking for higher SAPS, but everything I found for 505.01 was to ACEA C3 (mid-SAPS, <0.8%). Interestingly Mobil, as an 'alternative' oil had their "Mobil 1 FS 0W-40" listed, only has 502.00/505.00. I would very much consider it if it had 505.01, but I've seen mistakes in manufacturers' information before, and I'm hesitant to think that they really meant that it would be ok for this engine. I wonder though if 5W-40 will give any benefit over 5W-30 or 0W-30 with 504.00/507.00 in terms of wear and engine life, and if there might be any downsides to using it. They both have HTHS>3.5. The Shell ECT C2/C3 specs a KV100 of 11.9, whereas the 5W-40s I've seen seem to spec KV100 of ~13.8-14.0. Is that 2 cSt really that much different for the engine? How much might it thin down over a year of driving? Since the ACEA specs of these oils are 'stay in grade' then the xW-30 oils should go no lower than 9.3 cSP, and the xW-40 oils no lower than 12.5. Is 9.3 bad for this engine? I haven't seen anyone on any European forums recommend any ACEA E oils for PD engines. I'm wondering if the HDEO 'movement' in North America wasn't simply a result of regional bad experiences (for whatever reasons). Oh, the car does have an EGR, though it's without a cooler. I have many questions, and not many answers. smile
 
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mikecz

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OK, thanks. Do 505.01 oils still have that problem though? I would think that whatever problems existed on the oil manufacturers' side would have been fixed pretty quickly. smile
 
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Maybe maybe not. The original 505.01 spec is different from the current 505.01 spec due to updated emissions regulations, which included lowering the max SAP's.
 
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Originally Posted by mikecz
Ideally, I think I'd like a 504.00/507.00 5W-40, but have yet to find such a thing. smile
VW504.00/507.00 is ONLY specified as 0W30 or 5W30 oil.
 

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It's in the VW specs that the grades have to be either 0W-30 or 5W-30? The reason I said that is because the Lubrizol chart shows 504/507 to be better at wear resistance than 505.01. Would a 504 5W-30 be generally a better choice than a 505.01 5W-40? How would the shear stability of the two compare, or is it too general a question?
 
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Does anybody know what's in vw 505.01 or 507 oil so special that it protects those chamsafts...and that other full saps oils cannot? How safe is it to use E6/E9 oil in engine specifed for C3 (DPF)?
 
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Originally Posted by mikecz
It's in the VW specs that the grades have to be either 0W-30 or 5W-30? The reason I said that is because the Lubrizol chart shows 504/507 to be better at wear resistance than 505.01. Would a 504 5W-30 be generally a better choice than a 505.01 5W-40? How would the shear stability of the two compare, or is it too general a question?
It does show better wear specification, but among 0W30 or 5W30 oils. Do not forget VW505.01 can be found in 5W30 applications. In PD engine, I would use 5W40 or 0W40, something like Castrol Edge TDT.
 

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Do you mean to say that an oil that meets the 505.01 spec at 5W-40 would give better wear protection than a 5W-30 oil that meets 504.00/507.00? How come, if the 504.00/507.00 spec gets a 10 on the lubrizol chart, while the 505.01 gets an 8? The oil in the engine was changed today to Valvoline SynPower MST C3 5W-40. It's ACEA C3, and in addition to VW 502.00/505.00/505.01 it has MB 229.51 and BMW LL-04 approvals, among a few others, so I figured it wasn't bad. smile Is it a good oil? The bottle was a bit over two years old according to the date code on it, but it was sealed, so hopefully didn't go 'off'. The Valvoline was recommended by a shop, but I've also read many positive comments online about Mobil Super 3000 XE 5W-30 for these TDI PD engines (also has MB 229.51 and VW 505.01 and is an ACEA C3 oil). It's been around for a long time it seems, 10+ years?, and seems the same as Mobil Delvac City Logistics M 5W-30. It's an "HC-Synthese" oil. Do 'thicker' oils like 5W-40 necessarily have less viscosity improvers than thinner oils like 5W-30? Also, are there differences between various viscosity improvers in how easily they shear? Would 'newer design' oils have more shear-stable viscosity improvers (e.g. the 504.00/507.00 oils, 0W-30, etc)? Are the PD system components in PD-type engines much harder on the viscosity improvers than other engines' components?
 
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Originally Posted by mikecz
Do you mean to say that an oil that meets the 505.01 spec at 5W-40 would give better wear protection than a 5W-30 oil that meets 504.00/507.00? How come, if the 504.00/507.00 spec gets a 10 on the lubrizol chart, while the 505.01 gets an 8? The oil in the engine was changed today to Valvoline SynPower MST C3 5W-40. It's ACEA C3, and in addition to VW 502.00/505.00/505.01 it has MB 229.51 and BMW LL-04 approvals, among a few others, so I figured it wasn't bad. smile Is it a good oil? The bottle was a bit over two years old according to the date code on it, but it was sealed, so hopefully didn't go 'off'. The Valvoline was recommended by a shop, but I've also read many positive comments online about Mobil Super 3000 XE 5W-30 for these TDI PD engines (also has MB 229.51 and VW 505.01 and is an ACEA C3 oil). It's been around for a long time it seems, 10+ years?, and seems the same as Mobil Delvac City Logistics M 5W-30. It's an "HC-Synthese" oil. Do 'thicker' oils like 5W-40 necessarily have less viscosity improvers than thinner oils like 5W-30? Also, are there differences between various viscosity improvers in how easily they shear? Would 'newer design' oils have more shear-stable viscosity improvers (e.g. the 504.00/507.00 oils, 0W-30, etc)? Are the PD system components in PD-type engines much harder on the viscosity improvers than other engines' components?
Not sure how lubrizol is going to compare wear of 5W30 and 5W40 oils with different HTHS and composition? Take into consideration that until VW504.00/507.00 (result of camshaft issues on PD) VW did not have such stringent requirements, and VW504.00/507.00 is not also that stringent in other disciplines except wear. That is why when you buy oil always get oil that meets MB229.51, BMW LL04, etc. Each manufacturer has its emphasis on something. And yes, Valvoline is good. I used MST C3 in my X5 35d.
 

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According to Lubrizol, VW 504.00/507.00 and both VW 505.01 specs (1999, and 2005) require HTHS greater than or equal to 3.5 cP. I thought the Lubrizol chart compared the oil specifications and that's all, nothing to do with composition, etc., and if that's the case, then 504.00/507.00 seems to require better wear protection, from the oil, than 505.01. I didn't think that the chart represents what's required from the additive package. I don't know the history, but if it's true that some of the first 505.01 (1999 spec?) oils were not good enough in some circumstances, then perhaps that is why the 505.01 (2005) spec was made? It has a requirement of min. 0.8% SA, as opposed to no such stipulation in the old spec. In any case, the Valvoline oil I mentioned does not specify an HTHS value, nor does the Orlen oil I mentioned, so I assumed the worst, an HTHS of greater than or equal to 3.5 cP (since it has to meet the VW spec, at least). If that is the case, it seems the same as any 504.00/507.00 spec, or even 5W-30 505.01 spec oil. I have seen some 5W-40 oils specify higher HTHS values though, like 3.6 cP, 3.75 cP. I just wondered how the different spec oils shear through their life, and if, and if so, how much, the HTHS changed, if it was different for the newer specs, etc. I think I'm repeating myself though. smile Interestingly, again according to the Lubrizol chart, 505.01 (2005) requires SA between 0.8% and 1.5% inclusive, while C3 requires 0.8% or less. So I guess all the 505.01 C3 oils that are around have to be designed to be exactly 0.8%! That Orlen oil is not MB 229.51 approved (not even 'meets requirements of'), but only 229.31 approved, so I figured it's a bit 'dirtier' than the Valvoline. So far, the engine still works. smile
 
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by mikecz
Do you mean to say that an oil that meets the 505.01 spec at 5W-40 would give better wear protection than a 5W-30 oil that meets 504.00/507.00? How come, if the 504.00/507.00 spec gets a 10 on the lubrizol chart, while the 505.01 gets an 8? The oil in the engine was changed today to Valvoline SynPower MST C3 5W-40. It's ACEA C3, and in addition to VW 502.00/505.00/505.01 it has MB 229.51 and BMW LL-04 approvals, among a few others, so I figured it wasn't bad. smile Is it a good oil? The bottle was a bit over two years old according to the date code on it, but it was sealed, so hopefully didn't go 'off'. The Valvoline was recommended by a shop, but I've also read many positive comments online about Mobil Super 3000 XE 5W-30 for these TDI PD engines (also has MB 229.51 and VW 505.01 and is an ACEA C3 oil). It's been around for a long time it seems, 10+ years?, and seems the same as Mobil Delvac City Logistics M 5W-30. It's an "HC-Synthese" oil. Do 'thicker' oils like 5W-40 necessarily have less viscosity improvers than thinner oils like 5W-30? Also, are there differences between various viscosity improvers in how easily they shear? Would 'newer design' oils have more shear-stable viscosity improvers (e.g. the 504.00/507.00 oils, 0W-30, etc)? Are the PD system components in PD-type engines much harder on the viscosity improvers than other engines' components?
Not sure how lubrizol is going to compare wear of 5W30 and 5W40 oils with different HTHS and composition? Take into consideration that until VW504.00/507.00 (result of camshaft issues on PD) VW did not have such stringent requirements, and VW504.00/507.00 is not also that stringent in other disciplines except wear. That is why when you buy oil always get oil that meets MB229.51, BMW LL04, etc. Each manufacturer has its emphasis on something. And yes, Valvoline is good. I used MST C3 in my X5 35d.
In the spirit of fair discussion below are my 'two cents' from a not too old thread at TDIClub.com: "It is my opinion that sometimes here at TDIClub we have a 'Knee jerk reaction' to the debacle that happened to many PD cars in North America because many incompetent dealerships put just a regular 5W30 (synthetic or not) in the cars and contributed greatly to premature wearout of the camshaft. Therefore we concluded: "as long as the oil you put in your PD TDI is 5W30 you are doomed" or something similar. To a certain degree this is an understandable reaction. But if we do some research outside North America, in the continent that has far bigger pool of PD engines on the road, Europe, we see that many of the TDIs over there with Pump Duse engines (with or without DPF) used or are using a VW 507 spec oil (which is technically considered a 5W30 weight) for a cumulative miles/Kms in the range of millions and millions without the premature camshaft failures that PD TDIs experienced here in North America. Why you would ask this is possible if the viscosity is 5W30 that we have to avoid at all costs. The answer, in my humble view, is that not all synthetic 5W30 oils are created equal. As many of you are well aware of this no doubt. For a graphical explanation please refer to the following from Lubrizol Relative Performance Comparison Tool (https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html) comparing the VW spec 505.01 vs the VW 507 spec oils: [Linked Image] Now please understand that I do not have an interest that you use a 507 spec oil vs a 5W40 505.01 oil or a 5W40 HDEO one but I wanted to set the record straight that when we arrive at certain conclusion(s) we do not based it only on the very limited North American dataset but that we should be willing to research the topic worldwide whenever there is relevant data. For a more technical explanation you can look at this very interesting thread from a European VW/Audi thread (specially posts 12 and 16): https://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/best-oil-for-2-0-tdi-cr-engine.276227/ Also you may refer to Afton Chemical Specification Handbook (www.aftonchemical.com), the section dedicated to the VW spec oils which shows the much more stringent RNT Wear Test requirement that the VW 507 spec has vs the 505.01 one." Having said the above I would also agree that an HDEO oil and/or VW 505 5W-40 would be just fine for a 2002 TDI engine without DPF.
 
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