Oil Filters for Police Package Crown Victorias

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I would like to point out a very important consideration when it comes up maintaining a fleet vehicle such as a police car, and that is not miles driven, but hours ran.

You see, a police car, like a Kansas farm tractor, spends a lot of time doing one thing in particular-sitting at idle. Think of all the hours spent sitting running while grabbing coffee at QT...I mean, speed limit enforcement, when they are at crime scenes, at traffic stops, and yes at lunch.

...and no, the answer is that you can't turn them off. Batteries would die left and right on those things. Most of the computers reboot when you turn them off then on.

With all this being said, the maligned "every 3000 mile" interval makes a lot of sense. If only on the patrol cars, stick to it. I would also look into buying oil from a bulk distributor-it won't save you a lot of money, but a couple drums takes up a lots less space then plastic jugs everywhere.

I'm going to go on a huge dare here, but look into a vendor that sells recycled oil, such as safety kleen (or others). Even more likely, your state gov't may require you to buy it. I'm past my limit of knowledge at this point, but some quick research pointed me to dgs.ca.gov
 
Please note that on a modern fuel injected computer controlled car idling is virtually a 'wear free' activity.

Any fleet owner should proactively invest in some sampling and Oil Analysis. You can easily and cheaply figure out exactly how far to run the vehicles on YOUR oil at YOUR usage.

We did before accurate OLM's existed for us. It will save you lots of money.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Please note that on a modern fuel injected computer controlled car idling is virtually a 'wear free' activity.



Yep, and there are even some UOAs on the board that show this.
 
Originally Posted By: Bobbert
Thanks for the info guys. After some research I found Wix filters can be founf for cheap in bundles and instead of using Pennzoil filters and oils like before these cars will be getting Wix filters and Mobil 1 Super 5000.

This will allow me to to keep the change intervals at 5000 miles.

The only change that I would make would be to use Motorcraft FL-820s filters instead of Wix. I know that you said "Wix filters can be found for cheap in bundles", but the last time I bought MC filters they were $3.51 each to my door. MC filters are specified to last 7,500 miles (Ford OM) and so 5,000 mile OCIs are no problem. You would have zero issues with start-up rattle or warranty disputes, they are (more or less) Purolator Classic filter elements, and (according to Amsoil tests) the efficiency is 93.7% @ 20 microns.

You can see one cut open after 7,480 miles here.

All the best!
 
To the OP: good question and noble goal to cut spending.

I am also a fleet manager for a private university in Lexington, VA. We have many vehicles which are driven by students as part of a sober ride program. Because these vehicles are operated in severe conditions like police cars (countless cold starts, extended idling, stop-and-go, etc), changing engine oil/filter and transmission oil/filter has been cheap insurance for us. The student driven vehicles vary from Ford Econolines to Chrysler Town and Countrys, so it is difficult to stock one type of oil viscosity or filter. I consistently use Mobil Super 5000, Havoline DS, or Valvoline Nextgen (free after rebate) with an OEM oil filter from Walmart (or auto parts stores if rebate or on sale). The 5 quart jugs are simply easier to manage than pumping from a 55 gal drum in my experience.

I think you will also come to realize the 30K transmission fluid exchanges with filter and 3K oil changes with filter are good practices in the fleet world since the vehicles are subjected to varying operating conditions. Even extending the interval to 4K might be a conservative way to save money. By using OEM filters and changing at 3-4K intervals, you save yourself the headache of explaining likely unrelated mechanical failures to a supervisor. Also, if your area was paying $50 to a shop, you have already halved the budget by doing the work yourself ($13 for 5 quarts, $5 for filter, $8 your labor). That's a pretty big savings to me already...so really no need to extend your OCI to a rolling 9K.

Bringing vehicles in for service every 3-4K miles also gives you a good chance to inspect for leaks, check brakes, and see other odds and ends like CV boots on FWD cars. Don't short change the interval to save money...just do it yourself and enjoy the savings of not outsourcing.
 
Originally Posted By: Xstang
I would like to point out a very important consideration when it comes up maintaining a fleet vehicle such as a police car, and that is not miles driven, but hours ran.

You see, a police car, like a Kansas farm tractor, spends a lot of time doing one thing in particular-sitting at idle. Think of all the hours spent sitting running while grabbing coffee at QT...I mean, speed limit enforcement, when they are at crime scenes, at traffic stops, and yes at lunch.

...and no, the answer is that you can't turn them off. Batteries would die left and right on those things. Most of the computers reboot when you turn them off then on.

With all this being said, the maligned "every 3000 mile" interval makes a lot of sense. If only on the patrol cars, stick to it. I would also look into buying oil from a bulk distributor-it won't save you a lot of money, but a couple drums takes up a lots less space then plastic jugs everywhere.

I'm going to go on a huge dare here, but look into a vendor that sells recycled oil, such as safety kleen (or others). Even more likely, your state gov't may require you to buy it. I'm past my limit of knowledge at this point, but some quick research pointed me to dgs.ca.gov


This man knows exactly what he is talking about. Idling may be "wear free", but it is hot and hard on oil all the same, especially given a difficult climate. I am amazed how many of these forums posters just ignore folks with real life experience and continue to espouse theoretical (at best) opinions.
 
Originally Posted By: 95busa
I am amazed how many of these forums posters just ignore folks with real life experience and continue to espouse theoretical (at best) opinions.


True.

Interestingly, we know someone here who has direct experience with a fleet of CV cars used in Taxi service. He uses dino oils at 6k mile OCIs in Canada; no syn's in sight. He uses good quality filters, but nothing extreme like M1 BD+ or such. He runs his vehicles out to 400k and 500k miles or more. He cannot get the ROI to work out to justify expensive lubes. Taxi service is just as hard as police work in regard to vehicle maintenance; it is almost always lumped together conceptually. He uses UOAs to validate his maintenance; not all vehicles are tested as I understand it, but to justify his decisions and broadcast general guidelines. So if he (Garak) told this guy to run 6k mile OCIs on dino oils with normal filters, would anyone listen? Probably not.


Bottom line:
OCIs based upon the odometer or hourmeter are predicated on presumptions.
OCIs based upon UOAs and PCs are knowledge based.
One is a "best guess" and the other is factual.
Take your pick.
 
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Not saying in the least I wouldnt listen to him. I stated that I have seen someone destroy a 4.6L V8 in a 2000 or 2001 (I forget which) crown vic running an OCI out to 11K. I will submit that climate conditions are not analagous nor is the mileage comparable 6k vs 11k, Louisiana vs Canada. I will also say that while taxi and police service have many parallels, police service in my mind is more strenuous due to increased idle time and more skinny pedal application, although the other side is that Taxis are not always P71 police interceptors, some are fleet packages of some kind- much less durable. Bottom line- pay your money, make your choice. I wouldn't extend OCI on police cars past 4K for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being the public is out 3-4 grand for a new engine if you are incautious, and your agency has less resources to look after public safety if you have a car down. For small agencies that is a big deal. Can you justify risking 4 thousand dollars (or way more on newer police cars) worth of public money to extend OCIs that probably cost you 25-35 dollars each on contract or through bulk purchase and inmate labor.
 
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A lot of that really depends. Back in the Chevy small block days, we were in the middle of a big recession (you think this one's bad? Not even close, but that's another topic), and the cabs would idle and idle. Yes, the southern states are hot; we're up there in the summer, too, plus we get the ridiculous cold. As for the use of the accelerator, you need to drive with some cabbies.
wink.gif


Idling isn't great on an engine or the oil. There is one positive in such a situation though; the oil doesn't get the chance to cool down. The oil doesn't get cooked at idle, either. I've changed oil many times on 100+ F days, right after the vehicle has been on all day, always spill on my hands, and never got burned.

The bulk of my fleet maintenance was done when the oils weren't as good as they are today. On the other hand, we mainly used LPG, which eliminated fuel dilution. So, perhaps it would be a wash with a modern, fuel injected engine. Also, the vehicles were kept in tip top condition, since downtime had to be kept at a minimum - no difference than in police usage. Oil level (and all other fluids) were checked daily. I would hope that would be the same with police vehicles; if not, it should be. You've seen a 2000/2001 CV blown up because of an 11,000 mile OCI. I've seen cabbies blow their vehicles up for similar things, or not checking oil level. When I see a cabbie extend an OCI out to 11,000 miles, it's usually not out of trying to conserve; it's out of being plain cheap and lazy. If they change the oil whenever they feel like it (i.e. rarely), they tend to do the same thing with checking the oil.

Nowadays, I wouldn't hesitate to go 6,000 miles on conventional in such fleet service. Perhaps I'd run a UOA or two to be sure, if I wasn't absolutely certain.

Many of the taxis up here are the CVPI package. When the RCMP disposes of a vehicle, they tend to be gobbled up by taxi operators. When there was a taxi package CV offered by Ford, it wasn't much different from a CVPI - more robust cooling, enhanced electrical, similar seating options and surfaces, and so forth.

I'd like to add another thing, which may be controversial. If one is terribly concerned about shear or fuel dilution, there's always the possibility of running a 10w-30 instead of a 5w-20. I don't see a problem with a good 5w-20 and I prefer to stay within specifications, but if someone is concerned about it, there are other options.

The other issue is whether or not the police vehicle is actually running most of the day and night. That's not always the case with police vehicles. If they're sitting for a few hours, then driven hard to an emergency call, that has to be taken into account. If it's general patrol duty, that's a bit different. Highway patrol isn't the same, either; nor is an admin vehicle. All these can affect OCIs. It's not much different in the cab industry. If one has a taxi that's driven solely by other drivers, one might have to be more vigilant than if the owner were the sole driver. Some cabbies beat the heck out of their vehicles; others baby them. We tended to weed out the hard drivers for obvious reasons. That's something that's not as easily addressable in police work.

In any event, one has to do what one is comfortable with, provided it doesn't go to the extremes of being negligent or OCD. 3,000 miles might not be OCD, but 6,000 miles is far from negligent.

Risking $4,000 of public money is a bad idea. Risking $4,000 of my own money is a worse idea. I never had to replace a fleet engine once, though.
 
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First, I want to make sure to say that I'm not pointing my comments at anyone in particular here; I don't mean to offend directly. I'm poking more at the masses who have a general theory that more is better, and yet cannot really well define what "more" or "better" really mean.

There is precious little difference between a CVPI and a taxi car. The Police package has more to do with upgraded electrical alternator and wiring for lights, additional roof bracing (in case of roll-over), commonized locks (if ordered), bucket seats vs bench, etc. The running gear in a CVPI is no different than that of the taxi CV, or most any other. In general, the chassis is upgraded for severity, but the 4.6L engine is just the same 250HP engine that your grandma could have got a few years ago in her GranMarquis. The diff got 3.27 gears for PI, and the taxi/grandma's got 2.73 for fuel economy, although there could be ordered diff options. The brakes were upgraded for CVPIs, but those also could be had with taxi service.

And as Garak said, many taxi's started as something else and ended up as a taxi.

Further, police cars are just as varied in use as any other walk of life. Some departments "hot seat" them (they run non-stop where officers simply jump out at the EOS and the next jumps in), to departments that allow them as take home cars, and so they may see up to 12 hours of shift work, and then total downtime on off days. Some cars are hot-footed with the skinny pedal when used in traffic programs. Believe it or not, true chases are rare. But it is very common to run WOT for short bursts running from 0-80mph to chase down a speeder. Or, for a few minutes to get to an emergency scene. Many departments get federal grant money to work "projects" and they spend a lot of time chasing down offenders to write tickets. Yet two days later, they may be driving for hours on end at mundane speeds simply patrolling the countryside. There have been times I've been on patrol for 8 hours in the dead cold of Feb on a Sunday and not taken one single call because I was in the rural part of our county; I literally drove around and listened to the radio for the shift. There have been other times we've been short-handed and I spent most of the shift either full-throttle getting somewhere running lights/siren, only to sit idling while filling out a report on the in-car computer, and repeat that cycle over and over for hours. Police car use is as varied from day-to- day as any other walk of life. We have no more ability to generalize about the use of police cars than we do any other vehicle.


So, again, why not run some UOAs and KNOW what is going on? UOAs are NOT expensive (especially for a municpal dept). It is FAR CHEAPER to UOA a few sample vehicles than to OCI a whole fleet at 3k miles. Wallowing in ignorance with short OCIs because it's "cheap insurance" is no substitute for true knowledge for making a solid decision. Why guess when you can know?
 
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Dave, as I mentioned, there was (at least at one point) an actual taxi version of the CV, which was very similar to the CVPI. It even had the taxi yellow as a colour option. There were a couple minor differences between it and the CVPI, but they were negligible. The taxi version did offer the bench seat, whereas the CVPIs had front buckets. CVPIs offered rear seats in vinyl or hard plastic; the taxi version had the vinyl, and probably a cloth option. There wasn't a lot of difference in the drivetrain. Perhaps gearing might have been different; perhaps a different limited slip option may have existed. The CVPI may have had stouter brakes, but the cooling and electrical systems were the same, since taxis have similar cooling (i.e. lots of idling) and electrical requirements (radios, signs, lighting, accessories).

And when a police car does go WOT to catch a speeder, it's not the very instant after the car was turned on for the first time in the day, either. The oil will very likely be at temperature.

A lot of fleet vehicles, be they police, taxi, or something else, rarely have their oil levels checked, and that's where the danger lies, if you ask me. That's where I've seen the vehicles peter out. I'd rather go 6,000 miles on a full sump that's checked every day than go blindly on a 3,000 mile OCI, where the only time the dipstick is pulled is at the oil change itself.

If I were suddenly put in charge of a police fleet and there was some concern about funding (i.e. trying to balance oil change costs versus blown engine costs), I'd say I'd have to go the UOA route. Taxis and police are similar, yes, but there are subtle differences, as we've both pointed out. Running cabs, I was able to do all the oil changes myself and personally check the dipstick daily. In a police fleet, it might be harder to monitor oil levels, so some kind of documentation might be needed. Oils are better; fuel dilution with gas exists, but did not with LPG. So, to know whether the fuel dilution trumps the better oil, only a UOA could say.

Truth be told, it would be hard to fault someone for following the 3,000 mile severe service interval (assuming that's what's in the manuals). But, that's certainly not imaginative or getting appropriate ROI.

One also has to consider downtime. While downtime for an oil change on a CV isn't significant, it does add up. With the taxis, a 6,000 mile OCI corresponded to roughly one month. Change that to 3,000 miles, and it's every two weeks. I guarantee you that there are plenty of highway patrol vehicles that put on a lot more miles per day than do urban taxis. Looking at my 6,000 miles in one month, that gives an average speed of about 8.3 mph over 24 hours. There is plenty of idling between trips. City traffic is slow.

If a highway patrol car averages 30 mph, with two ten hour shifts, that works out to 18,000 miles per month (and that's a conservative estimate, based on what I've seen on some odometers from former highway patrol vehicles retiring to taxi service). If you change oil every 3,000 miles, that's 18,000 miles and 6 oil changes per month on one highway patrol vehicle alone.

The former highway patrol Impalas I've seen in recent years used the maintenance minder, and did a maximum of two or three oil changes per month on police service. For reference, I will see if I can get in touch with a friend that runs a very large taxi fleet now. He used to run LPG like I did, but now has moved to gasoline. I'll find out what his OCI is and see if he's had any longevity problems. He didn't do a lot of engine changes either; he used to personally inspect each vehicle each day, though I fear his fleet is now too large to allow for that. I'd ask my brother, who's still in the industry, but like I said previously, he's an idiot.
wink.gif
(Oil changes whenever, at the most expensive quick lube in town; filters that would make the Chinese counterfeiters blush)

As an aside, with respect to your comment that many taxis started life as something else, that's very true. If it's a Crown Vic or Impala, it was almost certainly a police car, and those tend to become available at roughly 100,000 miles (with fluctuation over some years due to budgetary concerns), since the police don't want to lose too much original value nor do they want to have a money pit on their hands with loads of downtime. If it's a Town Car, it's definitely been used, since new Town Cars were way, way too expensive to move directly from the dealer lot to taxi service.

In my years in the industry, I've seen a grand total of two brand new cars pressed into taxi service. One was ours, a 1986 Caprice bought brand new. That was a nightmare. First off, it must have been built on a Monday with all the little problems that popped up over the first few months. Aside from that, the loss on depreciation was never recovered. It was totalled off (like many taxis are) and insurers don't pay a lot of money for cars with hundreds of thousands of miles on the odometer. The engine ran beautifully and never consumed a drop of oil over the 6,000 mile OCIs. That didn't count for much on the back of a tow truck.

The other was a brand new minivan put into service by a colleague; he was the only driver on his car, plus one trusted part timer. He financed the thing back in the high interest days, and it simply didn't pay. He was an older fellow, and his only consolation was that he got to spend his days in a nice, new vehicle.

That's one major difference between police and taxi usage. The police must have a new, reliable, affordable vehicle and get their use out of it quickly, and move it out the door when they're finished with it, at a reasonable price, and if it's totalled off, well, them's the breaks. With a taxi, reliability and uptime are a concern, but you don't want to break the bank, knowing full well what insurance will pay on a high mileage vehicle, even if it's only three or four years old. A big hit like that is hard on a sole proprietor. At least in this jurisdiction, we can be paid a stipend by insurance for downtime due to a collision.
 
Originally Posted By: 95busa
This man knows exactly what he is talking about. Idling may be "wear free", but it is hot and hard on oil all the same, especially given a difficult climate. I am amazed how many of these forums posters just ignore folks with real life experience and continue to espouse theoretical (at best) opinions.


Note that both Jim and I have fleet experience. I go back to 1972 in my biz. And I'll hold my trucks duty schedule up against ANY kind of service! We routinely start our engines at 7 AM and never even shut them off until 7 PM. Stationary operation under load at 1500-1900 rpm for HOURS AND HOURS, then a trek through stop and go traffic for a chance to do it again. Tons of idling time. A curb weight of over 9000 pounds!

We use whatever is on sale and change by the OLM. Engine life around here is virtually infinite, with trucks running daily at 400k miles, 250K miles, etc.

I see nothing 'wrong' with being conservative about the service schedule, but without an analysis it's all conjecture.
 
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Don't think the OP has checked back in but I'll chime in again anyway:

I too would use an OLM if available. Most of the Ford products (aka Econoline and Crown Vic) have not had an oil life monitor that I am aware of though. Interestingly, the Crown Vic does have an engine hour meter that is accessible through the odo...maybe that could be a good way to schedule service (i.e. maximum number of hours allowed between changes as determined by a few UOAs).

My comment about 3-4K OCI as "cheap insurance" was not intended to be "ignorant." Although I am fully aware that most modern lubricants can far exceed that OCI, I use the 3-4K windshield sticker as a way to have the vehicles float back into my service bays.

The hard truth is most fleet drivers (especially the ones that don't read BITOG) do not check the engine and tranny oil levels when on shift. The only department that visibly encourages drivers to do so is the NYPD (check out the dashboards...every car has a sticker that says: "10-20: Time Out and Check Engine Oil." or something to that effect).

Also, most fleet drivers are not very reliable when it comes to obeying windshield service reminders. Again we have a smaller fleet, so there is no computerized system to pull cars out of service for preventative maintenance and there are no mandatory calendar dates. But most cars that I have tagged with a 3K OCI windshield static do not come back to the shop unless they have about 5K on the OCI. Usually I am tracking down the cars if I haven't seen them for a while.

Finally, the conservative interval gives the opportunity to check brakes, check suspension, check leaks, and check oil. So while the oil is up to snuff sometimes for more than 4K...its nice to give fleet vehicles some attention every few months.
 
Originally Posted By: RLGDiesel
Finally, the conservative interval gives the opportunity to check brakes, check suspension, check leaks, and check oil. So while the oil is up to snuff sometimes for more than 4K...its nice to give fleet vehicles some attention every few months.


That's one reason why we never went to synthetics and even longer OCIs. It pays to be able to get under the vehicle and look things over and see what the drivers broke over the last OCI.
wink.gif
 
Note that in our service vans the OLM rarely goes past 4400 miles or so due to extensive stationary operations. Many competitive OLM's do not properly allow for SO.

I absolutely agree that it is nice to have fleet vehicles in the shop for a look see, but in the last 10-15 years the whole maintenance picture has changed dramatically for us.

Change is good.
 
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
Note that in our service vans the OLM rarely goes past 4400 miles or so due to extensive stationary operations. Many competitive OLM's do not properly allow for SO.


Things have come a long way. It's definitely nice that modern OLMs take into account idling, particularly on vehicles that never had hour meters (or an hour based maintenance schedule) in the first place.

Not to derail, but wasn't it you who mentioned running coolant to component failure? That's pretty much what I did, and there were few issues. New/rebuilt rads were inexpensive and a rapid job. If I was smart enough to wear some thick gloves and be careful, the rad could be done while the car was being vacuumed and its windows washed. What do you guys do with differentials? They were never serviced on the taxis, and there was never a differential or axle failure in all my years. U-joints, well, that's another matter.
 
Absolutely correct on the cooling system service. Way back in the 90's I had lunch with a G team engineer from GMC who works with our factory authorized upfitter. We routinely run over 200k miles without ANY cooling system service.

Re: rear ends we simply change the fluid to synthetic sometime before 100k miles and then forget it. I have only had one rear end with ANY issues (just noisy-still running) in the last decade. They are a no problem part.

Our u-joints are grease-able and very rarely fail if the vehicles are kept out of deep water.

We had axle failures with Fords back in the 80's but that was due to improper weight capacities being spec'd. The trucks were simply not up to the loaded weight we create with a huge load of equipment and water. We have one tank of 110 gallons just for H2O!
 
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As I mentioned, we ran the cooling systems to failure on original green and tap water. There weren't a lot of issues. Of course, on my personal vehicles, that kind of thing makes me cringe, but it worked fine for the fleet. It certainly helps when a rad or water pump or heater core replacement is cheap and easy.

We pretty much left factory fill in the differentials. They carried on fine. The U-joint failures were likely as much due to abuse by drivers as anything else.

With respect to axles - quite right. The only axle failure I've ever experienced was with a farm vehicle, with, as in your case, an enormous load of water.
 
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