oil filter flow percentage

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver


Illustrating: a common mistake among jr 'builders' is to prime the oil pump, but not the oil system. How? they get a oil pump drive shaft (which you can make from hand tools) and spin it with a drill. they ignore all this oil pouring over the shaft which would be prevented had a distributor been in place. All the while they did this the oil pressure guage read 40-50-60psi and everyone was happy. then they replaced the distributor, fired it up and wiped out every rod bearing and half the mains....


I've never seen this. Now, this is also usually because a whole lot of assembly lube is used. Do you put together an engine dry?

And usually the pump is run until there is pressure on the gauge AND a significant amount of oil coming out of the rockers.

I've done this a few times, and witnessed it done numerous times and you know, we've never had an engine or bearing failure because of it.

Quote:
Why is it ok? well, none of these engines are going to see 6000rpm. Most wont see 4000. the pump and spring are set to begin bleedoff at 40-45psi and are in full bypass at 60 BUT, NONE of you EVER see that on your gauge. At least not hot. My windors run 52 and will get close to 60 on a kickdown, before it falls off. My chevies, evne the ones with hi vols only go about 55.


What Windsors are YOU running? the stock relief on the any of the modern Windsors was/is 65psi stock. I've seen them hit that pressure many, MANY times. And mine also hit a heck of a lot more RPM than that.

Quote:
why? because at WOT and max RPM on a stock pump, then engine is already outstripping the pump.
why dont they set the spring higher? let me answer that with a question: how is the pump driven?


Maybe you are building these wrong? Ford set the HO to rev to 6,250 stock. It would spin to 6,250 all day long, and make 65psi doing it. I've owned a few of them, heck, I have two of them right now with almost 700,000Km on them between the pair. Both stock bottom-ends.

Quote:
When you put in a hivol pump (with or without the hivol spring) what ELSE do you put in? (this is one of those clues I drop from time to time to look something up)


Why are WE the ones having to look this up when you are the one who nobody appears to agree with? Aloof references to get us to "think outside the box"... really? Isn't the burden of proof on YOU here?

Quote:
And I mentioned this once before: ford, or chevy I have seen this, especially in a boat, which has heavier duty parts, at sustained WOT operation will gradually drop oil pressure to about 40 when the system re-stablizes. I dunno about you, but I can only get about 5200-5400rpm out of my boats without caviation. such are the penalties of non-surface piercing drives. I bet anyone reading this has not seen 4800 out of their boat.


My old 888 (302) would spin 4,800 all day long. IIRC, it was around 45psi at that RPM, but that engine is tired, and with a LOT of hours on it.

We had an old Y-block that would run to 7K. But it only had bypass filtration, so not really relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote:
Obviously, no one is doing this in their cars, or if they were, they would be on CNN, and no one would race an engine at those speeds without many modifications - which among the first are dry sump oiling, and *2* oil filters. Big ones.


It is done all the time on the Autobahn......

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Until you understand why the measured psi before and after the filter has exactly zero bearing on whether or not the bypass valve is open, you wont understand what you are quoting.


So what exactly is your theory on why the pressure difference across the filter's media has nothing to do with the bypass valve working or not? Please enlighten us all.

Maybe the bypass valve just gets scared sometimes and jumps open whenever it feels like it?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


But that post that you just quoted completely contradicts everything you've stated in this thread..... If the bypass opens a few times at WOT during a drag strip pass, that's COMPLETELY different from "the bypass is always open", which you've been arguing.

In my first few posts in this thread, I CLEARLY indicated at that high RPM's the bypass can open.

You've now just posted something as proof what I already posted!!

Did I?


You stated:

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver

spin ons, dont care who makes em, dont care what they have in them, dont care about the media, only flow at best 30-35% of the oil pumped, and **0%** when cold. read that again over and over until you understand it.


And:

Quote:
if the block pop-off is 15psi, then yes, the small amount of oil flowing thru the filter hot would not open the 25-30psi or so bypass in the filter.


And you also posted THIS:

Quote:
And for the record, the 820/825 and similar modular filters? the bypass is around 16psi. meaning it too is ALSO always open, especially at speed,


.........

Quote:
I stated numerous times and you may quote me that at high rpms the engine requirements will outstrip the oil filter capacity. You of course said this is wrong because the engine does not suck or draw in anything.


Actually, I stated this before you made any reference to RPM being a qualifier for bypass actuation:

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Now of course there are two scenarios where the bypass WILL open:

1. With cold oil, as the filter media will flow less heavy oil than it will thin oil.

2. At high RPM's where the pump has the ability to displace more oil than the media can handle.



Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
The quote I posted above does not exist first of all because you have said many times I have not posted any quotes, but did it exist, it might be about, hmm, I dunno, someone using stock oem setups. Adn this was about purpose built engines. apparently, even the racing engines drop into bypass.


I really have no freakin' clue what you are trying to say here. You are saying the quote I posted, from this thread doesn't exist? Or are you saying you never stated the bypass is always open? Because you did, I just quoted it above.

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
and you call me a troll.


Find a quote from me in this thread where I called you a troll.

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
still waiting for the math work you did on that previous statement. Need any help? I note you claim to be a fluid dynamics guy.


No, I don't claim to be a fluid dynamics guys. I think you are getting lost here....

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Good thing I introduced you to Mr Reynolds *today* as he invented your entire claimed field of expertise ;-). In the 1800's. When it became a settled matter.


I'm a Network Engineer.....

 

[OldCowboy]

Hi QuadDriver

Several times I have asked you to provide references for your assertions. So far you have failed to do so. I am beginning to think you don't understand what a reference is.

A reference is not what some guys may or may not have said to you. This is hearsay.
A reference is not something you read in an unnamed textbook.
A reference is not a link to another discussion on BITOG, unless that discussion contains references.
A reference is not your side of a telephone call.

While a link to Reynolds Number is a reference, it provides no useful information concerning an oil filter's bypass state.

Here's an example of a reference: "No/Low SAP and Alternative Engine Oil Development and Testing", Mathias Woydt, Journal of ASTM International, Vol. 4, No. 10, Paper ID JAI100898.

Here's another: "EVALUATION OF A FUEL ADDITIVE: FINAL REPORT", SwRl Project No. 03-4810, SOUTHWEST RESEARCH INSTITUTE, 6220 CULEBRA, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS 78228-0510.

And another: "Lube Filtration", pages 65-90 in Engine Liquid Filtration, Donaldson Company, www.donaldson.com

Now, to this point you have not provided a reference which shows that at operating temperature a full flow oil filter is in bypass most of the time. Until you can do so, I consider you an obfuscating troll.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver

at 0* on jan 15th when you start your engine and the oil gauge comes up and not one single drop flows thru the media, what are the before and after readings?


If "not one single drop flows through the media", then the pressure drop across the filter is high enough to open the bypass valve. In reality, there is always some flow going through the media, even if the bypass valve is open. Only time that wouldn't be true is when the filter has solid Plexiglas for media.

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
And if you say "before = whatever, after = whatever minus 15 or 8 or 12", then you are wrong and you dont even understand why you are wrong.


So again, why don't you explain it all to us. You come up with these stupid mysterious comebacks with ZERO proof of your bizarre wracked out thoughts on bypass function.

Show us what you got genius

.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
I did say that the output pressure of a filter vs the input pressure is not indicative at all if the bypass is open.

Do you want to learn and understand this or not?


You keep spewing this garage logic, yet will not prove why you think this really happens. Why is that ... you know you can't prove it, and I know you know you can't.

Have you read this thread yet? Do you understand what it's all about? I doubt it.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

If you'd put down the wacky pipe and understand it, you'll see that this was measured data in a certified laboratory ... the very stuff you keep asking for. Proof that there is a pressure difference across the filter, and that it is much lower than the bypass valve setting. Which means the bypass valve will rarely open with hot oil flowing through it ... even at insanely high flow rates. 10 GPM is way more than 99% of the cars on the road can produce.

Real proof, but all you do is keep making up fairy tales in your head on how you think a filter works.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
And for the record, the 820/825 and similar modular filters? the bypass is around 16psi. meaning it too is ALSO always open, especially at speed.


So this statement leads me to believe that you think that when the engine's oil pressure is above the bypass valve setting it is making the bypass valve open and nothing flows through the filter's media? Is that your thoughts here?

If so, you don't have a clue on how pressure difference across the filter media is generated, or how that pressure difference causes the bypass valve to open.

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Until you understand why the measured psi before and after the filter has exactly zero bearing on whether or not the bypass valve is open, you wont understand what you are quoting.


This statement also backs up my theory that you really don't understand filter PSID as a function of oil flow rate and oil viscosity, and how the bypass valve works based on said PSID.

Give us your break down on how this really works in your eyes instead of spewing nonsense and asking us to prove everything to you. You suck as a debater and really can't prove jack.

 

[OldCowboy]

QuadDriver reminds me of a barracks lawyer. When he realizes he cannot win his original argument, he introduces a bunch of immaterial stuff to divert attention from his failure to prove his initial point.

 

[OldCowboy]

Hey Zee

What Quad's really saying is that until you realize that the earth is flat you won''t understand what he's saying.

Oh, and you also have to understand that the sun revolves around the earth.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver

Or let me put it simpler: If Instead I screwed on a remote filter adaptor and NO filter and just looped the output to the input what would we see?

will there be a small pressure differential from the input to the output. yes

Is there filter media inside? no

Is there a bypass inside? no

how can that POSSIBLY be? if I am wrong, demonstrate how that can be?

hint:

look here

assuming you did such, are you now ready to admit the pressure differential which does in fact open a bypass valve, has nothing to do with measured psi before and after a filter?

If you disagree, show your calculations


So again, are you thinking/saying that you think the pump's oil pressure is what opens the bypass valve and not the pressure difference across the filter media?

I'm really trying to determine where you've derailed on this whole subject matter.

This statement is somewhat contradictory in itself:

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
assuming you did such, are you now ready to admit the pressure differential which does in fact open a bypass valve, has nothing to do with measured psi before and after a filter?


Because you first say "the pressure differential which does in fact open the bypass valve" ... then you say "has nothing to do with the measured psi before and after the filter".

Dude ... make up your mind. The pressure difference between before and after the filer IS the pressure differential which "does in fact open the bypass valve" if the differential is higher than the bypass valve opening setting.

Don't you get that ... if not why?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
Hey Zee

What Quad's really saying is that until you realize that the earth is flat you won''t understand what he's saying.

Oh, and you also have to understand that the sun revolves around the earth.


Yeah, and they didn't understand PSID back in those days either! Maybe he's a time traveler that doesn't yet understand the "high tech world" of oil filters and oiling systems.

Seriously, as reflected in my last post I really don't think QuadDriver understands how flow through an oil filter creates a pressure differential across the media, and how the bypass valve is designed to open due to that pressure differential. I doubt he's ever cut open and oil filter and pushed on the bypass valve to comprehend how a simple check valve really works.

 

[OldCowboy]

QuadDriver reminds me of a quote: "...a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."

Macbeth, Act 5 Scene 4, William Shakespere

Hey Quad, note the reference to the quote. You can verify its accuracy. Something I can't say for your allegations.

 

[ltslimjim]

Quad = pwned.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Presenting obfuscation as art!

What a wonderful thread!

 

[Coprolite]

He had almost gone full circle with his arguments, why didn't you let him?

I would be interested for QuadDriver to teach the basics of filter bypass operation to me. I am looking forward to the exploded diagram linked from any major manufacturer site. He could then point out the two sides of the bypass valve and explain what the pressures are. The explanation of where 10 psi would come from to actuate a 10 psi valve without the differential across the filter being 10 psi would be a sight to behold.

Truth be told, the only bypass during WOT I've ever seen any comments on was at the pump bypass.

To a degree this is almost along the lines of Fermat's last theorem, in that no proof was ever offered. Fermat just got it right, in contrast.

 

[QuadDriver]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
BTW, I learned alright when I studied this stuff at University, and 20plus years as a practicing M.E., including lubricating oil systems.


If that is true, and I am not saying it isnt, why did you state with no ambiguity that I was wrong when I explained hydrodynamic lubrication and its requirements, only to stop when I provided 3 quotes re: Mr Reynolds proving what I had said?

Are you seriously telling me that is the first time you heard it???

 

[QuadDriver]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

I've never seen this. Now, this is also usually because a whole lot of assembly lube is used. Do you put together an engine dry?

That is understandable that you have never seen this. You do not own or work in a shop that rebuilds motors. I do both. auto, marine, motorcycle, atv. I also use assembly lube, I tend to prefer BG (lookitup) as it sticks rather well to dry surfaces. Obviously I dont put an engine together dry if I am explaining the process to others.

Quote:
And usually the pump is run until there is pressure on the gauge AND a significant amount of oil coming out of the rockers.


So you agree with me explicitly then, you must rotate the engine so you expose all of the holes on the crank and cycle each lifter past the block off. after all, a v8 will have more than one lifter blocked and more than one crank hole in the wrong position. So we are in agreement that I describe the process correctly? Great!

Quote:
I've done this a few times, and witnessed it done numerous times and you know, we've never had an engine or bearing failure because of it.


Logic? if you have done what I said, prime motor and rotate it to prevent failure then does it not follow that you experienced no failure?

Quote:
What Windsors are YOU running? the stock relief on the any of the modern Windsors was/is 65psi stock. I've seen them hit that pressure many, MANY times. And mine also hit a heck of a lot more RPM than that.


Um, ones from ford? Now you are just making stuff up. No stock oil pressure spring on ANY ford, windsor, FE or FT was ever 65psi. If you think otherwise, then please quote the part number and spec and we will compare it to the part numbers I have. If you dont have the part number then just quote the spring color as all the OEMs color them. If you have questions, contact an acquaintance 'Doug' at precision oil pumps [559) 325-3553 and he will be glad to assist. And no, the melling pump part number is NOT the oil pressure spring rating....

Quote:
Maybe you are building these wrong? Ford set the HO to rev to 6,250 stock. It would spin to 6,250 all day long, and make 65psi doing it. I've owned a few of them, heck, I have two of them right now with almost 700,000Km on them between the pair. Both stock bottom-ends.


Specious logic? building what wrong? I am building engines for the ford factory now? Or chevy? or? Ford, set no such thing for the reason you suggest. The EECIV control units in your motors have a rev limiter to protect the motor from coming apart. Each of your winsdor powered mustangs (and anything else for that matter) makes its peak power far far below 6250rpm. your engine does not have the power to get to 6250 rpm outside of the first 3 gears. meaning in a racing situation, you will never hit it. Hitting it for any reason is just, for lack of a better word - dumb. Dont take my word for it, go ask my business associate Jon Bennett of Bennett racing. He made his bones racings 5.0 stangs while you were in diapers.

Quote:

When you put in a hivol pump (with or without the hivol spring) what ELSE do you put in? (this is one of those clues I drop from time to time to look something up)


Why are WE the ones having to look this up when you are the one who nobody appears to agree with? Aloof references to get us to "think outside the box"... really? Isn't the burden of proof on YOU here?


Why cant you answer a simple question? If someone actually has experience in here, the first thing they would answer is 'hardened steel drive shaft' and in some cases 'metal sleeve instead of the nylong sleeve'. This is 101 type stuff The object is to get you to think about the answers and WHY they are the answers. Dont you even care about learning?????

Quote:
My old 888 (302) would spin 4,800 all day long. IIRC, it was around 45psi at that RPM, but that engine is tired, and with a LOT of hours on it.


no it would not and no you did not. At those rpms you are getting less than 1mpg and you likely had less than a 30 gallon tank, which means what? at most 45 minutes of running? and running overfueled forever without any other mods means you destroyed the motor. C'mon, try to understand the subject matter before posting? please?

 

[QuadDriver]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL


But that post that you just quoted completely contradicts everything you've stated in this thread..... If the bypass opens a few times at WOT during a drag strip pass, that's COMPLETELY different from "the bypass is always open", which you've been arguing.

In my first few posts in this thread, I CLEARLY indicated at that high RPM's the bypass can open.

You've now just posted something as proof what I already posted!!

Did I?


You stated:

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver

spin ons, dont care who makes em, dont care what they have in them, dont care about the media, only flow at best 30-35% of the oil pumped, and **0%** when cold. read that again over and over until you understand it.


And:

Quote:
if the block pop-off is 15psi, then yes, the small amount of oil flowing thru the filter hot would not open the 25-30psi or so bypass in the filter.


And you also posted THIS:

Quote:
And for the record, the 820/825 and similar modular filters? the bypass is around 16psi. meaning it too is ALSO always open, especially at speed,


.........

Quote:
I stated numerous times and you may quote me that at high rpms the engine requirements will outstrip the oil filter capacity. You of course said this is wrong because the engine does not suck or draw in anything.


Actually, I stated this before you made any reference to RPM being a qualifier for bypass actuation:

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Now of course there are two scenarios where the bypass WILL open:

1. With cold oil, as the filter media will flow less heavy oil than it will thin oil.

2. At high RPM's where the pump has the ability to displace more oil than the media can handle.



Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
The quote I posted above does not exist first of all because you have said many times I have not posted any quotes, but did it exist, it might be about, hmm, I dunno, someone using stock oem setups. Adn this was about purpose built engines. apparently, even the racing engines drop into bypass.


I really have no freakin' clue what you are trying to say here. You are saying the quote I posted, from this thread doesn't exist? Or are you saying you never stated the bypass is always open? Because you did, I just quoted it above.

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
and you call me a troll.


Find a quote from me in this thread where I called you a troll.

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
still waiting for the math work you did on that previous statement. Need any help? I note you claim to be a fluid dynamics guy.


No, I don't claim to be a fluid dynamics guys. I think you are getting lost here....

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
Good thing I introduced you to Mr Reynolds *today* as he invented your entire claimed field of expertise ;-). In the 1800's. When it became a settled matter.


I'm a Network Engineer.....


wasnt the reply to z06?

 

[Sayjac]

Having also read the whole thread.
Originally Posted By: OldCowboy
I've read every word in this thread and two things are obvious:

1) QuadDriver does not understand how the oil circuit of an engine works.

2) QuadDriver has made up his mind and refuses to be confused by the facts.

The fact is the bypass valve in an oil filter will open if, and only if, the pressure differential between the inlet and the outlet is greater than the spring pressure on the valve.

It is my understanding that under normal operating conditions (oil hot, relatively new filter) the bypass valve rarely, if ever opens.

I challenged QuadDriver to provide data showing that the "full flow" filter is almost always in bypass mode. He has not been able to do so. Instead, he has provided an argument that uses such twisted logic with extraneous arguments that it boggles the mind.

So, I say this to QuadDriver: Unless you can provide data to back up your opinions, it's time to end this argument by agreeing to disagree. And by data, I mean published data from a reliable source.
^This.
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
when you are driving on the highway oil is always in bypass ...

No way. With hot oil, most filters wouldn't be in bypass even if the engine was at redline and the oil pump in pressure relief mode.

Originally Posted By: QuadDriver
I have been unable to locate a website listing hot flow rates of anything other than hydraulic oil for filter sizes, suffice to say, to handle the 5gpm, aint no little 3387A gonna do it.


Read this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...451#Post1619451

If an oil filter isn't clogged up much, it will flow 100% of the oil almost all the time. The only time it should go into bypass is when the oil is cold and the engine RPM is up. That's a good reason to take it easy on RPM until the oil warms up....

^And this. And, ignore the QD prattle.

 

[Coprolite]

+1 sayjac and company.