Oil Analysis Marvel Mystery Oil

[demarpaint]

I not a chemist, but I think a product can be reversed engineered to a point, then cost becomes an issue. I seriously think a $20 $50 or $100 fee is going to give an exact detailed analysis of anything. Once again thanks Jax for posting.

 

[Jax_RX8]

One other note on MMO composition - it does have some Sulfur in it as well, as has been corroborated from the MMO Forum. This is why is not recommended for diesels that require USLD, as it will drive the sulfur limits slightly above ULSD requirements. Rich Kelly, MMO Technical director, stated: "Adding 4-ounces of MMO to 10 gallons of ULS fuel adds 1.6 ppm (parts per million) to the fuel which could bring the sulfur content of the fuel above the maximun of 15 ppm sulfur." If you have 4 oz of MMO taking it from 15ppm to 16.6 ppm across 10 gallons of fuel, this looks like (if my math is right) 10 gallons x 128 ounces = 1280 ounces/4 ounces of MMO - 1 to 320 ratio 320 x 1.6 = 512ppm/oz to make the raise from 15 to 16.6 ppm plus the base 15 ppm/oz = 527ppm of sulfur in MMO.

 

[Mamala Bay]

Is MMO adding sulfur in gasoline and how does that affect the gasoline. Does this make the fuel dirtier.

 

[CourierDriver]

call mmo, number is on bottle i think

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver

call mmo, number is on bottle i think

Good idea, or he can post the question on their forum.

 

[Jax_RX8]

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay

Is MMO adding sulfur in gasoline and how does that affect the gasoline. Does this make the fuel dirtier.

All fuel has some sulfur in it, this will increase it a little, but should not have an effect on burning "dirtier". Main benefit of sulfur, of course, is that it is a great AW/EP additive for both use in the gas and fuel. Yes, sulfur can build up on catalysts, just like phosphorous, but the other ingredients in MMO seem to keep this from happening (also known to be a great remover of lead buildup as that is why it was used in aviation applications so much). There are many testimonies of MMO being used for 200-300 thousand miles with no catalyst failures, so it must not build up due to formulation.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8

Originally Posted By: Mamala Bay

Is MMO adding sulfur in gasoline and how does that affect the gasoline. Does this make the fuel dirtier.

All fuel has some sulfur in it, this will increase it a little, but should not have an effect on burning "dirtier". Main benefit of sulfur, of course, is that it is a great AW/EP additive for both use in the gas and fuel. Yes, sulfur can build up on catalysts, just like phosphorous, but the other ingredients in MMO seem to keep this from happening (also known to be a great remover of lead buildup as that is why it was used in aviation applications so much). There are many testimonies of MMO being used for 200-300 thousand miles with no catalyst failures, so it must not build up due to formulation.

Good info Jax, I have a van from 1988 that has seen MMO fed via an Inverse Oiler or in the gas tank since new. My 93 Aerostar has a little over 180,000 miles I've been using MMO in the gas for about 130,000 of those miles. Both have the original cat converters. The Aerostar has the original 02 sensor as well. Point being if MMO was a cat killer those cats should be dead. On a recent NYS inspection of the Aerostar it passed with flying colors.

 

[mechanicx]

I don't particular use MMO much or any other additives for that matter, but as far as I can tell and from what I've seen with others using it, MMO is and does what it's claimed to do and has for many years. That's more than you can say for a lot of additives. It's very reasonably priced to as well.

 

[robrecht]

Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8

"Not even close" - we'll see. ...

Hi, Jax. We miss you over at RX8Club. I couln't resist quoting Terry's cryptic comment. Too bad he can't/won't come back and discuss the details. BTW, I'm still using FP+ (w Idemitsu) in my premix, but in a pinch I'll use MMO, also based on your advice. Thanks!

 

[JBM]

My Jeep with 136k miles drips black stuff from the tail pipe if i let it idle in the morning. Just an observation, i dont know if its bad or good.

 

[lipadj46]

Originally Posted By: JBM

My Jeep with 136k miles drips black stuff from the tail pipe if i let it idle in the morning. Just an observation, i dont know if its bad or good.

That is a normal thing especially if you have a lot of black carbon in your tail pipe.

 

[disturban]

Originally Posted By: fsskier

I have looked long and hard for any evidence that MMO has any value in motor oil...... except perhaps the placebo effect. The varied claims..... good fogging oil reduces wear good cleaner protects upper cylinder better gas mileage thinner, helps cold starting increases oil pressure engine got quiet engine got noisy easily 5 more if you look.. Contradictory results indicate that the improvement is in the eye of the beholder. One that a quick search showed includes the statement: "My car has reached 200K and still runs well - I attribute this to MMO" So, let me add my equally scientific observation: "My two cars, including an extreme use tow vehicle, have now reached 300K miles, still running like new, are clean inside,burn no oil, etc." I attribute this to having never contaminated my oil with any additives! Probably one gobazillion hours have gone in to determining the ideal amount of detergents, dispersants, etc in your GF4 oil, if more made things better it would likely be in the GF4 requirements!

X2...my suburban just hit the 300k mark and it has never seen anything except Mobil 1 it's whole life, does not tick, knock, smoke and uses 1qt in 10,000 miles and that must be because my cylinder walls are gone from all the iron in the UOA's using mobil 1...LOL!

 

[Jax_RX8]

Originally Posted By: robrecht

Hi, Jax. We miss you over at RX8Club. I couln't resist quoting Terry's cryptic comment. Too bad he can't/won't come back and discuss the details. BTW, I'm still using FP+ (w Idemitsu) in my premix, but in a pinch I'll use MMO, also based on your advice. Thanks!

Thanks! I still visit the RX8club every once in a while, but not as much since I sold my 8. Interesting that when I do, still so much discussion on premix - the debates go on :) Before Terry left, he had made some comments about the dichlorobenzenes and his concerns with their potential to create acids (with heat and moisture), but IMHO any acid creation seems to be well taken care of by the antioxidants in MMO itself and in the host oils. Heck, the combustion process itself creates a lot of acids, so it is not unusual for the oils antioxidants to have to neutralize them over the life of an OCI. Plus all the UOAs with MMO utilized in the oil have validated very good wear numbers, with some seeing a faster decline of the TBN. For the 8, I am still a fan of using Idemitsu premix with FP+, a great combo for a rotary engine for extra rotor seal lubrication and cleanliness. I would choose this combo second to MMO for premix as my 8 always had a little more pep with the MMO, but both are great choices. Keep posting here - a good resource and a good crowd.

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:

38 parts per million (ppm) Boron - AW/EP agent, friction reducer, antioxidant 900 ppm Phosporous - AW/EP agent 1/2% 1, 2 ortho-Dichlorobenzene - EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer 1/4% 1, 4 para-Dichlorobenzene - EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP or other AW additives. Also very good cleaner/solvent, and friction reducer

I would like to see some data on those last two items on the Dichlorobenzenes. An Iron chloride is a salt. Why would it be beneficial if it "interferes" between an AW additive/anti-oxidant such as ZDDP and the surface it is supposed to protect? The dichlorobenzes are good HC solvents but that is about as far as I would stretch it. The phosphorous is most likely a Sulfur-Phosphorous (S-P) combo which is probably why MMO has a sulfur warning for diesel operators. There are generally two types of "lone" S-P compounds as additives; one is a compound used in gear lubes and another compound for use in hydraulic oils.

 

[ionbeam22]

Originally Posted By: Papa Bear

"Did I miss something, where is the Analysis at?" Click HERE to see the report.

That much phosphorus with no zinc suggests tricreysl phosphate with the rest of this being ashless oil.

 

[ionbeam22]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

I would like to see some data on those last two items on the Dichlorobenzenes. An Iron chloride is a salt. Why would it be beneficial if it "interferes" between an AW additive/anti-oxidant such as ZDDP and the surface it is supposed to protect? The dichlorobenzes are good HC solvents but that is about as far as I would stretch it.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=IDRxAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Very old patent on this topic, and you can find other references in the patent literature. Note the formulations of some of the preferred embodiments of the invention. Ditto for http://www.google.com/patents?id=R61nAAAAEBAJ&zoom=4&pg=PA74#v=onepage&q=&f=false where if you do the math on the effective amount of the concentrate to be used in fuel, one could imagine MMO as being a dilute version of this (dispersed in neutral lubricating base oils).

 

[Jax_RX8]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

The phosphorous is most likely a Sulfur-Phosphorous (S-P) combo which is probably why MMO has a sulfur warning for diesel operators.

I would appreciate your opinion here, but I think I have found the phosphorous in MMO, an organophosphate - Tricresyl Phosphate (TCP). Here is a link on Wiki (notice the reference to Marvel in the footnotes): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricresyl_phosphate One of the key reasons I think it is TCP, is that MMO is known for being a good remover of lead, and this is referenced on the wiki page that TCP is very good at this. The page also references that TCP is known for use as a gas additive to prevent engine misfires - which would make sense, since MMO is recommended for both oil and gas. Also interesting, is that TCP's use in motor oils pretty much ended in the 50's with the invention of ZDDP. But, apparently, it is still used in jet engine oils today (I am not sure why). On another note related to my post above on the Sulfur in MMO, I am now thinking that is may not be an actual additive, but that the sulfur is there as it is part of the Mineral Spirits and Naphthenic oil itself. Does this make sense?

 

[Jax_RX8]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule

I would like to see some data on those last two items on the Dichlorobenzenes. An Iron chloride is a salt. Why would it be beneficial if it "interferes" between an AW additive/anti-oxidant such as ZDDP and the surface it is supposed to protect?

Mola - here is the primary source I was able to find during my research on the effects of Dichlorobenzenes aiding lubricity and providing AW/EP properties. As I understand it, dichlorobenzenes are one type of chlorinated hydrocarbons, and as such the research I found below on Extreme Pressure tribology of Chlorinated Hydrocarbons applies (although they use different chlorinated hydrocarbons for the research). The first sentence is: "Chlorinated hydrocarbons are commonly added to a base lubricating fluid when it is used for extreme-pressure (EP) lubrication of ferrous metals. It is demonstrated here that the interfacial temperature in the EP regime varies linearly with the applied load in a pin and v-block testing apparatus and that temperatures in excess of 11000 K can be attained. Thermally decomposing chlorinated hydrocarbon vapors on iron heated to these temperatures (1) shows that a film consisting of an iron chloride which incorporates small carbon particles (~50Angstrom) is formed. In this paper, tribological measurements at extreme pressures and the corresponding analyses of the rubbing surfaces and wear particles also indicate that this film, formed from the chlorinated lubricant reacting with these surfaces, is the critical antiseizure material at less severe EP loads and interfacial temperatures less than ~1000 K" Following are two links of a research paper I found: Part 1 Part 2 There is a significant amount of detail and analysis (with the pictures missing), but here are the conclusions from both Parts: Part 1 "Type I" tribological behavior for relatively low concentrations of chlorinated hydrocarbons added to PAO apparently results from reactive film formation with iron. Surface analyses indicate that the film consists of FeC1^sub 2^ and carbon. This film prevents seizure between rubbing steel surfaces until its temperature approaches the melting point of ferrous chloride in the pin and v-block rubbing interface. At the melting temperature, its shear strength apparently drops quickly and the film is removed much more rapidly than it can be formed by further reaction. Part II examines the kinetics of film formation and the quantitative aspects of its removal, thereby allowing the modeling of this interface." Part 2 "Ferrous chloride and apparently carbon from chlorinated hydrocarbon additives both play important and varied roles under EP lubricating conditions. It may be rationalized that carbon's availability and movement within the sliding surface reaction layer affects seizure load, (mu) and wear rates and the transition from Type I to Type II behavior."

 

[MolaKule]

Quote:

One of the key reasons I think it is TCP, is that MMO is known for being a good remover of lead, and this is referenced on the wiki page that TCP is very good at this. The page also references that TCP is known for use as a gas additive to prevent engine misfires - which would make sense, since MMO is recommended for both oil and gas. Also interesting, is that TCP's use in motor oils pretty much ended in the 50's with the invention of ZDDP. But, apparently, it is still used in jet engine oils today (I am not sure why). On another note related to my post above on the Sulfur in MMO, I am now thinking that is may not be an actual additive, but that the sulfur is there as it is part of the Mineral Spirits and Naphthenic oil itself. Does this make sense?

Yes. If not an S-P combo, then it could be either TCP or TAP (triaryl phosphate). I believe the above references to chlorinated hydrocarbons are speaking to the high molecular weight chlorinated esters or waxes that were used in gear lubes, way lubes, and metalworking fluids as an EP agent with a rate of approx. > = 0.02% or 20 ppm. Dover Chemical was a major supplier of these chlorinated esters. An analysis showing the chlorine content could shed some light on whether they are using these chlorinated esters or not. Some later info showed these specific chlorinated compounds could become corrosive under heat and moisture and lead to hydrochloric acid formation. I think the CH's in MMO are just common, low cost chlorinated solvents that break-up carbon molecules.

 

[ionbeam22]

http://corporateportal.ppg.com/CAD_Files/Bulletins/Orthodichlor.pdf?title=Orthodichlorobenzene

Quote:

Another type of use is in motor oil additive formulations. It is also used as a solvent in paint formulations, as well as in compounds for removing paints, varnishes, lacquers, resins, gums, waxes, heavy greases, acetylcellulose, sulfur, organic sulfur compounds and oxides of non- ferrous metals. In engine-cleaning compounds, orthodichlorobenzene is a specific solvent for the removal of carbon and lead deposits from carburetor and engine parts. Orthodichlorobenzene is a superior solvent for rubber and tar, and is frequently used to dissolve tarry residues in stills and other processing equipment

It's cool stuff, and I've used it as a non-reactive heating media for inorganic synthesis. It's polar, inert, and has a high boiling point (180.3*C). They could be using chloroparafin additives, but only o-DCB has been listed on MSDS sheets, so IMHO thats the more likely source.