OHC Engines and Viscosity

[Fred Hammond]

My understanding is that the Ford Modular engines are of the overhead cam design. In order for oil to reach the camshaft quickly, x-30 wt. oils where needed. Is this correct? Does any car maker allow a x-40 or x-50 wt. oil in a OHC engine. Does anybody think it would be a good idea to use the Mobil One 0w40 in a new Ford 5.4L that will see hard use. From what I have recently learned, M1 0w40 is probably not a wise choice for this engine, but I would like to hear why or why not. I'm showing my ignorance as I have much catching up to do. Thanks--

BTW- I was in Walmart yesterday, read the backs of every different oil they had. Only 2 5w20 oil in stock, Motorcraft and Castrol GTX ? . I'm pretty sure the Castrol was a dino, but the label said it met the Ford spec for new engines. Interesting. Fred

 

[sprintman]

Why do you think 0W40 not a wise choice?? just interested.

 

[G-MAN]

Mobil 1 0w40 is factory fill in every Mercedes AMG, every Porsche, and every Aston Martin. These cars all have OHC engines. In addition, Helix Ultra 5w40 is the factory fill and sole recommended service fill for all production Ferraris and these all have OHC engines.

 

[MavRick]

Here's what Mobil says about 0w40 on their website:

• Protects engines in situations where conventional motor oils may break down.
  
• Meets the engine performance specifications of European automakers, including Mercedes-Benz, Porsche and BMW.

They don't say that about any of their other weights.
As for speed getting to the camshafts on startup, 0w40 should get there faster than 5w30.

I'm tempted to try this oil myself on my Ford 4.0 SOHC

[ January 04, 2003, 03:53 AM: Message edited by: Giles ]

 

[Fred Hammond]

There isn't a specfic reason that I didn't think M1 0w40 was not a wise choice for the newer Ford OHC motors. Basicly, I've been brainwashed (heard it over and over) into thinking that the xw40 wts. were too thick and the xw30 wts. were actually needed (5w30 particularly) for the OHC design.

I realize that the 0w-- or 5w-- is the critcal component for start-up pumpability, but I don't know enough as why a premium xw40 such as M1 0w40 would not be a better oil than M1 5w30 for a new Ford 5.4L. From what I have learned here, the M1 0w40 is a better oil than M1 5w30, but is the engine design itself the limiting factor. Granted my first-hand knowledge is very limited, the newer, OHC engines that I know of that have gone the 300k-400k mi. were using 5w30.

As I mentioned before, I'm showing my ignorance and will try to learn all I can so that I can make intelligent and informed decisions. I'm not sure that Ford has my best interest in mind when it comes to making my motor last. Fred

 

[Ken2]

Fred, remember that 0W-40 is 40wt @ 100°C. When cold, the 0W- oil is slightly thinner and slightly more pumpable than a 5W- oil.

Also, look at this thread that's currently running, "Castrol 10-60 for '03 M3," about 10W-60 oil required in an overhead cam BMW.

Ken

[ January 04, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Ken2 ]

 

[TooSlick]

Fred,

I think Ford specs a 5w-20 for this engine, but I'd run a 0w-30/5w-30 synthetic like Mobil 1. I don't see any reason to go to a 40wt oil in almost any modern engine unless you are having oil pressure and/or oil consumption issues. I know some local guys who run 0w-30 synthetic in the 4.6L and 5.4L Triton V-8's down here in Alabama and it works very well ....

The BMW M Series, engine problems are a rather unique situation and not really applicable.

TooSlick

 

[metroplex]

Ford engineers state that 5W-30 is more than adequate for these motors. We are not driving Mercedes or Porsches or Ferraris.

What goes for one Euro engine design doesn't necessarily go for an American engine design especially if you have no clue as to what major differences there are in the engines. Oil passageway differences? Oil pump design variances? Etc... Besides, OHC Modular V8s last 200k miles+ using -30 weight oils.

If anything you can try 0W-30 in your modular motor. I too will be getting a brand new 5.4L V8 very soon, but I plan to use M1 5W-30 from the start.

 

[Dr. T]

Whoah! First off, unless you've been under a rock for the past 5 yrs., every manuf. uses OHC engines except for GM!!! So, what you've heard is completely INCORECT.

Secondly, a 0-40 is, by virtue of it's "0" weight is the thinnest at temp. and can be used down to -53F according to Mobil (pumpability limit). So unles you're planning on driving the car in conditions below this...I know it doesn't get below this in KY...in fact, where on Earth does it get colder than this? That's why most of us run 5 and 10 weight in winter. I run a 15-50 down to -5F because it never gets that cold up here in Toronto.

As far as the 40 weight, I'll bet that's what's recommended in other continents for the same engine...if anything OHC engines run hotter and a thicker-at-temp. oil will provide added protection against sludge/varnish...eg. Toyota. in the long run.

 

[WeyounDS9]

What Dr T said

Also here in KY it is perfectly safe to run a thikcker oil all winter.
It rarely gets below 20F.

Fred...

 

[dragboat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by palmerwmd:
What Dr T said

Also here in KY it is perfectly safe to run a thikcker oil all winter.
It rarely gets below 20F.

Fred...

---

But why would a person want to do that? The same oil formulation is available in a lighter grade that probably will not be ran for a full 12 months I don't see why not changing the viscosity for the seasons that way a person gets full benefits of both oils,,the oils gotta get changed some time,why not pre winter,then in early to late spring depending on miles and driving habits of course.

 

[Dr. T]

The answer is simple: "multi-grade". It's not
1962 anymore. Oils come in multi-grade so that they can be used in a wide variety of temperatures. eg. last fall (October) I went from 90+F in NYC to 28F in Toronto in a 10 hr. period. Should I have changed the oil in that 24 hrs.? No. It's nonsense. Use one oil that satisfies the temperature requirements of your engine..and that's it. I still think the enemy is heat...but, to each his/her own.

 

[dragboat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. T:
The answer is simple: "multi-grade". It's not
1962 anymore. Oils come in multi-grade so that they can be used in a wide variety of temperatures. eg. last fall (October) I went from 90+F in NYC to 28F in Toronto in a 10 hr. period. Should I have changed the oil in that 24 hrs.? No. It's nonsense. Use one oil that satisfies the temperature requirements of your engine..and that's it. I still think the enemy is heat...but, to each his/her own.

---

And your simple answer is not a cure all,,this has been on my mind for awhile now,,what ever happened to changing the oils for the seaons?,,a 0/40 is NOT a one size fits all in a State that it can get below 20F and a oil for the season can be used effectively,in this case summer a better choice for the 0/40 and 5/30 for winter,,I posted the VI difference at 40c,does that not mean anything to you? The 5/30 IS a better winter oil for that State and motor than the 0/40 period IMO and once again,the oil will need be changed more than once per year!

So again since the oil cannot be ran a entire year IMO it would be best to use a lighter VI oil in winter when possible,th "0" part means nothing to me,the VI at low temp does though

As you say,to each his own and some motors last longer than others because of these "each to his owns"

I know it's not 1962,,,some people don't know how to chang oil for seasonal use though and or expect a oil to do all jobs summer and winter,,I wonder why Mobil even made a 5/30 when the 0/40 does it all?

[ January 05, 2003, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[buster]

These differences are so small that I don't think are too significant. You could get away with running a 0w-40 all year round and not have any problem. It still flows at -50F. Might be thicker, but it is still pumping and reaching critical parts quickly. Once the engine is warmed up, it's a non-issue.

[ January 05, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[dragboat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:
I don't agree. If a 10w-30 oil from Mobil 1 says it will flow at temps. down to around -55F, why can't it be just as good as a 5w? 5W is only around 5 degrees less. If a 0w-40 flows at temps. down to -50F, isn't it still as effective as a 5w-30 in cold climates? Once the car and engine is warmed up, it doesn't matter anymore so technically you could run a 0w-40 all year round even in a cold climate.

---

Why do you think they give specs at 40c? Why do these specs that are VI differences relative?
I give up,you guys win,,,Fred,be your own guide on these forums and opinions of others,if in doubt consult with Mobil,they are pretty friendly folks on the telephone these days,

Over and out

 

[buster]

I just went back and read your prior posts and changed my mind somewhat. I think dragboat makes a good point. I don't know for sure. Give Mobil a call.

 

[MavRick]

Dragboat raises an interesting point about looking at the 40 degree celcius Vi rating. I went and compared and the 0w40 is thinnest oil they have when cold (cranks well), but is 33% thicker than 5w30, and 24% thicker than 10w30 at 40 degrees C. At 100 degrees C it maintains similar thickness differences at 32% thicker than both 5w30 and 10w30 oil.

I was hoping for some surprise but didn't see any. I wished they would show the viscosity at a more typical temperature like 0 Degrees C. Better yet a curve that shows the oil Vi over a wide range of temperatures.

[ January 05, 2003, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Giles ]

 

[dragboat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sprintman:
Why do you think 0W40 not a wise choice?? just interested.

---

Here is why I think the 0/40 is not the better choice.
The Vi at 40c is 80.3 for the 0/40- vs 53.7 for the 5/30
Yeah the 0/40 pumps well but is fairly thick when warming up
I wish the data sheets would compare all oils in a brands line at the same temp when it comes to Cold Cranking cP
The 0/40 is 4301 @ -35c and the 5/30 is 3600 @ -30c
It is too bad the warranty guys don't take cold weather pumping into consideration when using a synlube vs a dino,the 10/30 would be my choice where this ownwer lives,,shoot,the 15/50 pumps like most 5/30 dino's,all but the Phillips Trop Artic 5/30 dino,it has the best cP's I have seen in a dino for 5/30 wt

 

[Patman]

It is possible that an oil with a higher viscosity at 40c than another might also end up having the same viscosity at 0c too. I agree, having the viscosity at 0c would give a better idea of it's low end. 40c is still pretty hot.

 

[ondoy]

Hi All:

This is my first post; finally decided to register after several days being a browsing-guest in this great forum. Very informative indeed.

Giles said:

quote:

---

I was hoping for some surprise but didn't see any. I wished they would show the viscosity at a more typical temperature like 0 Degrees C. Better yet a curve that shows the oil Vi over a wide range of temperatures.

---

I have seen (I can't remember where) a curve of viscosity versus temperature of an HDMO with viscosity on the vertical and temperature at the horizontal. The variation of oil viscosity versus temperature was plotted on a log-log scale so the resulting curve is a straight line with a negative slope. What this means is that: given two points where the viscosity and temperature are known, it is only a matter of connecting these two points with a straight line with the two points plotted on log-log scale.

Hope this helps.

ondoy