OH NO>>>ENGINE IS FRIED

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Originally Posted By: Pete591
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Yes, they do have a nitrile bypass.


You mean nitrile ADBV, right?


So Pablo.... what are you thinking caused my situation of oil starvation.?

Oil level was fline...no burning oil ever...everything fine...could hear a bit of a metal rub sound when on a slight incline lately on incines going over to the M-1 filter...

I just didn't put 2+2 together fast enough.





No I think metal fatique or related. Easy enough to tear into and find out.....maybe I need to re-read the intial post.
 
Like others, I have a seriously hard time believing this failure is from the filter. The basic construction of the M-1 filter and the other filter are not SO different that it would cause complete oil starvation. The filter would be able to pass enough oil to lube the engine, and with a high-quality oil, everything would be fine.

I'd also guess this is an oil pump failure.
 
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You might be able to fix it... My dad bought an old WHITE brand tractor with a B&S engine that had been run with no oil and seized for $50!
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He took it all apart and ordered a replacement con-rod and re-honed the cylinder. He also welded the aluminum block where the rod punched a hole in it.

He put it all back together and sold it for $500 just today.

Engine runs perfectly fine!
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I was once a small engine mechanic and done just the above with a B&S engine and also a Tecumseh engine both had holes in the block patched them up, re-honed the cylinder, new piston & rod, and away we go!
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I doubt the filter was the problem sounds more like an oil pump failed or metal stress and fatigue that caused the rod to let go.

I would carefully inspect the engine for a post mortem and see just what you got and how it got there don't just take one mechanics word for it.

With luck you might be able to save it, if not you got 19 good years out of it give it a decent burial and get another engine.

If you get a new engine keep right on treating it right and you should go far. Your oil & filter choices were not bad in my opinion and I would not sweat it that much.

I know you are bummed now but these things happen no matter how good you are to an engine just like people some last longer than others for no apparent reason, all that you can do is take the best care possible and hope for the best.
 
Originally Posted By: eoghan
... I doubt the filter was the problem sounds more like an oil pump failed or metal stress and fatigue that caused the rod to let go. ...



+1
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Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: eoghan
... I doubt the filter was the problem sounds more like an oil pump failed or metal stress and fatigue that caused the rod to let go. ...



+1
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+2 - If do decide to take it apart, Pete, please post us some pictures of the internals. I've had engines that threw a rod for seemingly no reason at all.
 
Originally Posted By: Pete591
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Pete,

What oil were you running in that B&S?


I have always run a 15W-50 synthetic for 19 yrs.

Motul 15W-50 300V Diester was in there when it blew.

Anyone think it was the wrong choice of oil that did it?



Yes, I was wondering if the combination of thicker oil (vs. mfg. recommendation) and the more restrictive filter caused a problem.

But, I have no knowledge of your oil characteristics OR the engine characteristics.

And, I agree with others....sometimes things just break. I had a Kubota compact tractor engine with low compression in one cylinder after only 1400 hours +/-, even with meticulous care.
 
That's now my best guess....15W-50 Motul too heavy/ it was 90*F out... and the M-1 having more restriction than the B&S combined led to this.

(In my new tractor I am going to use Amsoil ASE 10W-30 and using the B&S stock filter. B&S says you can use 30wt or a 10W-30 in thier 20 HP Extended Life Engines).

I looked in there a bit..not going to take it all apart...both cylinder walls look like the engine was getting NO oil...badly scarred real deep on one side probably has a very large gouge where the pistin broke off. Sad thing is it probably looked great prior to this happening. It's a commercial Vanguard that goes for $1,200. Am I still crying about this? :)

The interesting thing is it was running fine except for a squealing noise I could not figure out and I parked it...then went to start it and it was seized and discovered all this.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pete591
Briggs 16 HP Vanguard seized and has a broken piston rod due to oil stravation I was told. Oil was full and recently changed a couple weeks back.

The mechanic sid it was because instead of using the B&S oil filter I went and listened to somebody and used a M-1 102 instead. The M-1 created too much resistance and the oil pump did not have the where with all to pump enough oil through it and it did not bypass.

He claims to have seen this occur a few times.

Probably $1,200 to replace...so I decided to trash it and get a new Simplicity tractor...this one lasted 19 yrs but should have made it much longer I feel.

Not happy right now...



Re: B&S 16 HP Vanguard OHV, Model 303447, Type 0379-01-1880, Code 92061011, B&S filter no. 492932S, 492056,5049D

This engine powers my 3000 psi Hydro Tek pressure washer since 1-18-95. I changed the oil filter after two hours or so of use and have been using any filter that fits since then. Green Quaker State QS3614, Yellow Penske PN3614, AC PF53 to name a few. All new equipment gets Amsoil 4 stroke ASE 10-30/30 but the Vanguard engine has been fed any SL rated 30HD available. I believe all the filters are longer than the original B&S so in conclusion, I believe you are being fed false information about the engines demise.
 
Let me just make a few points;

1.The genuine B&S filters are made by Champion labs if they are black in colour and are available in 2 lengths.There is also a yellow filter called an extended life version which appears to be made by Fram and is the same length as the short black filter.This latter filter is fitted to American made ELS engines and one would assume the filter media is more restrictive like the Mobil filter.

2.The V twin Vanguard motors are made by Daihatsu in Japan and are of a very high quality.They regularly exceed 2000 hrs of service.

3.The specified oil is of course SAE 30 like B&S specify in all their engines.This engine will also run well on 10W30 conventional.It is a cool running design.

So what could have gone wrong?My diagnosis is there was a lack of oil flow.The engine seized because one of the rods welded to the crank journal,which your mechanic said was the result of no oil in the sump.This is the normal reason in 99% of cases.You also state the bores are marked as if there was no oil splashing onto the cylinders.The source of cylinder lubrication on a vertical crank engine is from the big end,usually there is a spray hole in each rod.Both symptoms point to no oil flow to the rods which can only be caused by a failed oil pump drive or a blockage.The bypass on the Mobil one filter should have allowed adequate oil flow so I am at a loss to say definitely it was caused by this or that.
Why were you using a 50 weight oil,this was way outside the called for oil spec.On these air cooled engines oil flow is important not just for lubrication but cooling?
Peter591,now that you have started this thread I think you owe it to us to dismantle this engine and tell us what you find.
 
Originally Posted By: JimmyChainsaw
......Peter591,now that you have started this thread I think you owe it to us to dismantle this engine and tell us what you find.



And we want Autopsy photos as well!!!!
 
Originally Posted By: Tim H.
Originally Posted By: JimmyChainsaw
......Peter591,now that you have started this thread I think you owe it to us to dismantle this engine and tell us what you find.



And we want Autopsy photos as well!!!!


+1
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Pete591: ”Moral of the story is that sticking with a manufacturer's product is the way to go on oil filters from my experience.”

Easy to come to that conclusion. But I came to a different one years ago: Stay away from Mobil 1 oil filters and their super dense (“high efficiency”) media.

Why? Because I heard from a Honda Prelude driver years ago. He told me he had two filter failures using this unit on his Honda Prelude when autocrossing. One blew open (split) and another blew right off the block itself. I'm not sure if he was running a high-volume oil pump or the stock one.

This told me that these are very restrictive filters and depending on your application, could cause oil starvation … even if they don’t quite blow up. Still don’t know why they wouldn’t go into bypass … as all oil filters should if they are left on too long and become clogged with wear and other debris.

I’ll still use Wix (cost-no-object) or Purolator oil filters (regular, not Pure-One) on all OPE without concern.

” Anyone think it was the wrong choice of oil that did it?”

Maybe just a bit … a thick oil which may have contributed to over-pressurization. I won’t run a 50 weight oil in OPE. Some folks here run Mobil 1 15W-50 with no problems but it’s historically a bit light for a 50 weight. I like to think of it as a 15W-45.

Maybe the combination of a 50 weight oil and a restrictive filter … one for some reason didn’t go into bypass … DNF’d the motor?

But like others here, I am leaning towards metal fatigue or oil pump failure/blockage as the most likely cause.
 
I appreciate all the feedback!!

The screeching or squealing sound I heard before it seized may be the result of worn bearings or inadequate lubrication. This could be due to lack of oil (!!) or a problem with the oil distribution system (pump, passages, slinger, etc.).

I don't have the ability/tools to do a tear down and autopsy...sorry to dissapoint anyone.

The tractor is off to it's resting place tommorrow. I have a new Simplicity Regent with a B&S 20 HP V-Twin Extended Life engine on order. Supposed lots of improvements have been made to this Briggs commercial engine..

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/engine_power/engine_details.aspx?pid=54

http://www.simplicitymfg.com/products/lawn_tractors/regent/

B&S says to change oil after 5 hours initially. At that point I am thinking about going over to Amsoil ASE 10W-30 SAE 30wt.

Is 5 hours enough for breakin before the Amsoil?



Thanks for all the feedback!
 
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Hey, pete - can you take the filter off and turn the engine over a few times. I'm curious to see if oil blows out the filter hole. If it does then we'll know the oil pump was still good and the failure was in fact due to a restrictive filter/improper grade of oil. No autopsy required.

Maybe I'm wrong about this - somebody please correct me if so.
 
"B&S says to change oil after 5 hours initially. At that point I am thinking about going over to Amsoil ASE 10W-30 SAE 30wt. Is 5 hours enough for break-in before the Amsoil?"

I don't think so. I'd go 2-3 hours on a conventional oil (whatever), drain then repeat this at least once before switching to a synthetic like Amsoil. It's best to flush out the break-in debris before you start using the good stuff and leaving it in longer.
 
Originally Posted By: greenaccord02
Hey, pete - can you take the filter off and turn the engine over a few times. I'm curious to see if oil blows out the filter hole. If it does then we'll know the oil pump was still good and the failure was in fact due to a restrictive filter/improper grade of oil. No autopsy required.

Maybe I'm wrong about this - somebody please correct me if so.


I just removed the oil filter which was about 1/3 full. (It is positioned at a 45 degree angle and screws in downward so the oil has to pump upward at a 45 degree angle.) I turned the motor over with a wrench and every time oil came spurting out the small hole on the side.

I am in tears now. Too heavy an oil and or a wrong filter? Both my bad decision.
 
Originally Posted By: Bror Jace
"B&S says to change oil after 5 hours initially. At that point I am thinking about going over to Amsoil ASE 10W-30 SAE 30wt. Is 5 hours enough for break-in before the Amsoil?"

I don't think so. I'd go 2-3 hours on a conventional oil (whatever), drain then repeat this at least once before switching to a synthetic like Amsoil. It's best to flush out the break-in debris before you start using the good stuff and leaving it in longer.


I will do a couple couple 2 hr drains with B&S 30wt...it is stout.
 
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One additional observation...

I drained part of the oil which was still a clean looking amber color. But in the new clear collection container there is a definate 2 toned swirl of oil colors present. One color is amber and the other color is yellow.

I am wondering if i got a bad or oil batch of oil

It was 15W-50 Motul 300V diester.

FYI...I have been running a 15W-50 M-1 product for near 10 yrs with a B&S filter...I don't think 15W-50 is the fault. But now I am wondering why the oil is seperating out and will not "go back into solution"??


Might be the Motul 300V...the containers I received were in the old silver bottles I think they have new plastic bottles as of a year back...

Anyone see a diester do this for any reason?
 
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