OCI’s for GDI

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by BigShug681
Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by BigShug681
So the oil is dark, has a UOA been done? If not then you could be wasting perfectly good oil in attempt to keep a fluid, that is put through all sorts of different conditions, in pristine condition.

I don't get why anyone worries about color. I change oil in a car where the manufacturer specs an oil change that could leave anywhere from 22-28% of the previous oil in the crankcase. If it's dark it stays pretty dark and I don't think it matters as long as the additives are doing their thing keeping everything in suspension and the TBN doesn't drop to nothing. Also - some motor oils have additives that darken with use, and that's not really a problem either.

Exactly, yea if you check the oil and it looks like a chocolate milkshake then you should be alarmed but just being dark doesn't mean it's time for new at 1200 miles, if that was the case Diesel engines would require oil changes sometimes right after the first start on fresh oil

99.5% of vehicle owners don't do UOAs. Also, we are not discussing diesel oil here.

Again, if the oil is black at 1200 miles, change it sooner. Also, if you believe your engine is relatively clean and buy a specific brand that turns black prematurely, change brands.




It has been stated here many times that the color of the oil has no bearing on its ability to do the job. Changing oil when it turns black is something they did 70 years ago. If the color bothers you, get a uoa done with TBN.

 

[caprice_2nv]

Well my V8s from 1976 and the 1980s have always stayed extremely clean looking until at least 3k miles when I was doing more highway driving. Now they dirty up a little bit faster but still nothing compared to the GDI engines. If they all of a sudden start to dirty up fast I'm going to suspect i have bad blowby and something is going wrong.

If your engine has always blackened the oil then fine, don't let it bother you I guess. But if they stayed clean for years with regular maintenance then all of a sudden turn black, something is wrong.

Also black oil being fine is something I have only read on this site. And I've read quite a few things I disagree with on here. Not counting diesels and GDI engines my experience has been black oil goes hand in hand with an under maintained vehicle. Usually the rest of the fluids look horrible and the door hinges are seizing up, etc.

 

[BigShug681]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
Well my V8s from 1976 and the 1980s have always stayed extremely clean looking until at least 3k miles when I was doing more highway driving. Now they dirty up a little bit faster but still nothing compared to the GDI engines. If they all of a sudden start to dirty up fast I'm going to suspect i have bad blowby and something is going wrong.

If your engine has always blackened the oil then fine, don't let it bother you I guess. But if they stayed clean for years with regular maintenance then all of a sudden turn black, something is wrong.

Also black oil being fine is something I have only read on this site. And I've read quite a few things I disagree with on here. Not counting diesels and GDI engines my experience has been black oil goes hand in hand with an under maintained vehicle. Usually the rest of the fluids look horrible and the door hinges are seizing up, etc.

Yes if the oil does something unusual then it's time to investigate but saying dark oil means it's dirty or needs changing is simply untrue and I'll use the diesel example again they turn oil pitch black in a matter of hours but the UOA will come back exceptionally clean. Do a UOA and surprise yourself. Technology changes so don't expect the oil to behave the same way it does in a 80s truck.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
Also black oil being fine is something I have only read on this site. And I've read quite a few things I disagree with on here. Not counting diesels and GDI engines my experience has been black oil goes hand in hand with an under maintained vehicle. Usually the rest of the fluids look horrible and the door hinges are seizing up, etc.

Who mentioned "black oil"? I've found it always starts an amber color (which some indicates there's a dye) and then turns various shades of brown. Even if it darkens faster than it did before who cares as long as the engine runs well and stays clean.

I don't subscribe to the opinion that motor oil is changed to "remove contaminants". Motor oil is changed to renew the additive packages. I get that an oil change removes some thickened base oil and sheared VII, but there's still almost 30% of the previous oil in there when I've done a change with my wife's Civic keeping the filter. If it's gone 20k miles and 3 years since the last oil change - yeah that's neglected. However, I've seen motor oil turn a nice dark brown after 5000 miles where the oil is doing fine. Heck - I remember my experiment with Mobil 1 back in the 90s on a 1989 Integra RS. After 12k miles on Mobil 1 10W-30 with filter changes (which probably weren't necessary that often) every 3000 miles, the UOA came back almost perfect. Good wear metals although for some reason it had a high lead level. If anything, the filter changes weren't strictly necessary to improve filtering, but it did give a chance to add additives.

 

[PimTac]

I would say that you are in a very unique situation if you have a vehicle that retained 30% of the old oil during a change. Is there not any way to get more oil out during the drain?

 

[caprice_2nv]

You specifically (and others) said "I don't get why anyone cares about color". I mentioned my girlfriend's GDI makes the oil jet black shortly after an oil change. Dark brown after 3-5k miles doesn't bother me, if it's still somewhat transparent. Black oil in anything but a diesel is what kind of bothers me.

My only experience with black oil in a well maintained gas engine is the Hyundai's which happen to also be well known for rod bearing failure. Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't give me a good feeling about it.

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by PimTac
I would say that you are in a very unique situation if you have a vehicle that retained 30% of the old oil during a change. Is there not any way to get more oil out during the drain?


That is one reason I won't change the oil and leave the old filter on even if it's likely capable of twice the mileage. Someone on here once said "do you only wipe your a$$ every second time?" Lol.

I'm changing the oil at 5k miles max in my carbed engine along with the filter because of fuel dilution from my 7 minute trip to work and my gf does 3 months max in her Hyundai because it's almost always black and she does short trips too.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by PimTac
I would say that you are in a very unique situation if you have a vehicle that retained 30% of the old oil during a change. Is there not any way to get more oil out during the drain?

2002 Honda Civic LX. Specifications say a 4.4 quarts total capacity. 3.4 quarts change with a new filter and 3.2 quarts without. So that's about 27.3% just by the numbers, but of course the actual amount can vary. Even with a filter change it's more than 20% of the previous oil.

And I don't like putting it on ramps to access the oil filter, so I'm happy just doing the filter every other OCI like the maintenance schedule says is OK. While I suppose there have been some issues with Honda engines, these normally aspirated, port-injected 4 cylinders have been pretty solid.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by PimTac
I would say that you are in a very unique situation if you have a vehicle that retained 30% of the old oil during a change. Is there not any way to get more oil out during the drain?

2002 Honda Civic LX. Specifications say a 4.4 quarts total capacity. 3.4 quarts change with a new filter and 3.2 quarts without. So that's about 27.3% just by the numbers, but of course the actual amount can vary. Even with a filter change it's more than 20% of the previous oil.

And I don't like putting it on ramps to access the oil filter, so I'm happy just doing the filter every other OCI like the maintenance schedule says is OK. While I suppose there have been some issues with Honda engines, these normally aspirated, port-injected 4 cylinders have been pretty solid.




Nothing wrong with it as it is mentioned in the manual. Every vehicle I've owned I have always gotten whatever oil capacity it states out. My currrent Mazda takes five quarts, and I fill the five quart jug with used oil.

On mine I use 2x10 boards doubled up as ramps. That is just enough for me to get under it. The drain is at the rear of the sump so angle wise that is a plus. I am not fond of ramps either. The wood idea works for me.

 

[BigShug681]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
You specifically (and others) said "I don't get why anyone cares about color". I mentioned my girlfriend's GDI makes the oil jet black shortly after an oil change. Dark brown after 3-5k miles doesn't bother me, if it's still somewhat transparent. Black oil in anything but a diesel is what kind of bothers me.

My only experience with black oil in a well maintained gas engine is the Hyundai's which happen to also be well known for rod bearing failure. Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't give me a good feeling about it.

I'm saying do a UOA before you condemn the oil and it may also help you if something is wrong

 

[Patman]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv


That is one reason I won't change the oil and leave the old filter on even if it's likely capable of twice the mileage. Someone on here once said "do you only wipe your a$$ every second time?" Lol.



Honda has been recommending changing the oil filter every other OCI for a long time now, and they make long lasting engines so they must know what they are doing. If you use a good filter like the Fram Ultra (or other synthetic media filters), it'll be perfectly fine leaving it in for 2 OCIs in most situations. It's rated for 20,000 miles in a healthy engine, and that's a conservative rating as I'm sure they've tested it to go 30k and still be fine. I'm not worried about the few ounces of old oil that's left behind either, I would only worry about that if I had far overextended the interval and the oil was way beyond it's useful service (but I don't push my oil that far)

 

[1JZ_E46]

Cars with an external oil-to-air heat exchangers leave a lot of used oil in the system. My X5 probably leaves behind 1-2 quarts between the heat exchanger and lines.

 

[caprice_2nv]

Originally Posted by Patman
Originally Posted by caprice_2nv


That is one reason I won't change the oil and leave the old filter on even if it's likely capable of twice the mileage. Someone on here once said "do you only wipe your a$$ every second time?" Lol.



Honda has been recommending changing the oil filter every other OCI for a long time now, and they make long lasting engines so they must know what they are doing. If you use a good filter like the Fram Ultra (or other synthetic media filters), it'll be perfectly fine leaving it in for 2 OCIs in most situations. It's rated for 20,000 miles in a healthy engine, and that's a conservative rating as I'm sure they've tested it to go 30k and still be fine. I'm not worried about the few ounces of old oil that's left behind either, I would only worry about that if I had far overextended the interval and the oil was way beyond it's useful service (but I don't push my oil that far)


My 83 Caprice says the same thing (for normal service - which my driving conditions are not anyway) but either way I'd rather not do it. I would follow my manuals 7500 mile OCI only if doing mainly long highway drives with full synthetic and then I would still change the filter every time and not every 15000 miles like they suggested. Maybe their suggested maintenance interval was part of the reason for the camshaft failures when these engines were new. Personally I don't always trust the engineers.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by ka9mnx
I'm the second owner of my F150 and the original owner took excellent care of it (reason I bought it). It darkens the oil twice as fast as my other vehicles. It's just the nature of the engine and reminds me of all the other '60's designed engines I've owned in the past.

I'm the first to say colour really doesn't matter, but there was a clear difference with how the F-150's oil was looking before the rebuild and with a bad carb and after. Each vehicle, particularly if used in a relatively stable usage pattern, has its own equilibrium or baseline, if we can call it that. Some vehicles have normally very black oil. Some don't. The issue is to look for something markedly abnormal. A UOA is ideal, but that's not always practical. If a certain vehicle always has amber oil over a 5,000 mile OCI, let's say, and you're always using the same oil and same usage pattern, if all of a sudden it's black next time a thousand miles into the OCI when that never happened before, or it's giving you low oil pressure alarms, then it's time to pay attention.

 

[bbhero]

Originally Posted by caprice_2nv
You specifically (and others) said "I don't get why anyone cares about color". I mentioned my girlfriend's GDI makes the oil jet black shortly after an oil change. Dark brown after 3-5k miles doesn't bother me, if it's still somewhat transparent. Black oil in anything but a diesel is what kind of bothers me.

My only experience with black oil in a well maintained gas engine is the Hyundai's which happen to also be well known for rod bearing failure. Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't give me a good feeling about it.



I see what you are saying... And I tend to agree with you... Oil in a naturally aspirated motor normally does not turn jet black very quickly. Usually it goes from translucent brown/amber and slowly darkens over time. If in this scenario a oil change is done and say only after like 1200 miles the oil suddenly turns jet black in this port injection naturally aspirated motor then I may well be concerned a bit.

This actually happened with my lady's Camry when we first got it... I figured that the car had finally had enough heat cycles put on it to break loose a lot of crud inside the motor. That car had been short tripped for over 15 years and likely never truly saw a real operating temperature achieved. After changing the oil after that first run that phenomenon never happened again. The oil gas slowly gained color with every oil change after that initial run. Thus proving my hypothesis correct.

But if it had kept on happening and happening I would have been much more concerned. Because that is not a normal observation I have ever had with a na port injection motor...

Just like if one cuts open their oil filters and it always seems just fine with no issues. Then after a cut open it looks like fine metal flakes are in the filter.... Time to get concerned... If something is off a normal baseline then it does in fact matter...

But every circumstance is one unto itself... GDI motors are a totally different animal vs a na port injection motor. And thus those observations are going to be very different. Therefore rendering a color observation not meaning anything. Same as stated is true with diesel motors has well..

 

[ChrisD46]

A lot of soot is generated in a GDI engine oil by the design .