O-Ring in a Dixie Cup III

[con carne]

I see the other topic has now been closed.....so here goes:

Bob - how much swell were you expecting to see with the o-ring test? Too much swell would not be a good thing right? If it was to grow 5%, for example, it would then be .006" over the original diameter and I do not think that one can accurately measure that with the caliper that you have shown.

Is it possible that new seals do not respond in the same way to seal swellants as old hardened o-rings? I am not a chemist, and I am just wondering if this could be so.

[ August 10, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: con carne ]

 

[David]

con carne,
I think you are missing the point of what bob was showing us !!! I for one understood WHAT the experiment was showing. It was a simple little test that he and I had been discussing before so he was experimenting with this, that's all!!! UNDERSTAND ??

Why are you trying to make a big deal out of this little test ???????????

PS you didn't answer MY question before on this!
What is you point ? Please let us hear it !

[ August 10, 2002, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: David ]

 

[Johnny]

I was one that told Bob I thought is was okay to remove the old thread, as I personally thought it was going no where and it was starting to get out of hand.

However, the way con carne worded this post has a simple question. Would new and old seals respond differently. My common since tell me yes. And I guess that should be the simple answer.

Now con carne, the test that Bob ran was just a simple test showing what some reactions would be. Nothing more and nothing less. It wasn't an ASTM controlled test, just a simple show and tell. I found it pretty interesting as it was just more food for thought. I think we should all just let it go at that.

I personally enjoy your post and hope you will stay around and share your thoughts with us. I do think you should at least let the board know what your email is. I assure you they will not share with everyone else if you don't want them to.

I hope all this gets worked out.

 

[dickwells]

Not to throw any gasoline on the fire, but when I first viewed the results of his interesting experiment I was thinking that it should have been conducted at operating temperature for average motor oil. About a month at 200 degrees should show us some real tendencies. In fact I may have some little sample bottles around and might take a shot at it. My measurement of choice would be to weigh the washed orings on an analytical balance to see how much if any weight they picked up. RW

 

[Tommy]

David,

Thanks for asking me the question (again presumably) and then locking me out from posting. O.K., maybe it was not you personally, but one of the moderators?

I did not see your question before, as it obviously in one of the many posts that were deleted.

I really am not making a big deal over the o-ring test, but over this board's policy of censoring posts. Someone started a topic called "Questions for Bob that were never answered" regarding this o-ring test and I had these questions on my mind and thought I'd ask - they were relevant questions to the topic. I had no idea that I was entering a forbidden zone in questioning Bob's test.

My point? David, this is a place for discussion - what do you think my point was?

Bob concluded in his o-ring test:

"So at this point, my personal conclusion for this test is that motor oils, full or standard dino oil does not condition seals. This would also stand behind the reasons as to why the Schaeffers 131 Neutra helps stop valve stem leaks (puffing smoke in the morning) whereas motor oils alone don't."

I am just saying that perhaps this has not been proven with this test.....again, this is a discussion board. If someone makes a claim that motor oils do not condition seals and that only Schaeffer's Neutra does, than expect to get some opposition to it. I think that any scientist that has ever published test results on anything has to accept the fact that his (or her) methods will come under some scrutiny at some point.

Thanks for your comments Johnny.

[ August 11, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Tommy ]

 

[David]

Tommy, I can't state it any better than Johnny did already!
Have a good day

 

[dragboat]

I aggree with Johnny,mails imo should be avaiable. Could be used to answer some things off the board or exchange information

 

[Tommy]

Sounds good Bob but........as far as "accusations" are concerned, your moderators have admitted to removing the posts in question - they did not just simply drop out by way of some software glitch.

You can see that this topic is number three (III) now, the previous two were deleted as was the original topic that was started by someone else. (Questions for Bob that remain unanswered) I should also mention that I have been blocked from posting, hence the new login name.

Johnny did say it best:

However, the way con carne worded this post has a simple question. Would new and old seals respond differently. My common since tell me yes. And I guess that should be the simple answer.

There you go, that was easy. It really is simple, and if the original post was just left alone we would not be here right now, three topics later.

Quote from you Bob:

quote:

---

So point is, Look at it, debate and discuss it, pick it apart.

---

So where is the problem with questioning the method and the conclusion of your test?

[ August 11, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Tommy ]

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

Tommy,

I have not had any problem with you wanting to know about the seals. I did answer that as I did this last time.

What I didn't get into was a debate of if those calipers can be all that acurate.. I felt no reply was needed as it was obviously pictured for who ever wanted to state their opinion on the acuracy. I had already given the facts as I knew them. Anyway,

As for the moderator stepping up to bat on the post deletion, He did this to calm the board down as everyone was thinking it was me and it wasn't.
I commend his actions as he obviously understands politics and felt as I that this was rediculas and out of hand.

I have found were most likely the reason for the post disappearing due to the edit feature for individual posts and that IF the topic starter deletes his original post, this also deletes that whole topic. Did this happen? I don't know, as I was not the one that did it. Hopefully it was that, and this will be the last time this happens.

So, to avoid this, I have disabled all edit features for posts and hopefully these thread deletions and acusations come to a halt. Unfortunatly, I am slightly offended that many would point a finger at me with no proof or discussion with me about the topic, claim I am censoring everything, then when all the smoke clears, not one person can mustard up an appology. I really suspect that even now, this wont happen as I didn't prove it wasn't me. I guess, it really doesn't matter, as long as things move on.

There is a great many who have followed my board from even before the UBB board, and they know, I have not deleted a post just because someone didn't agree with me or schaeffers. I am bigger than that and I'd hope that others can be that way as well.
Only when personal flames will we consider deleting.

It's just a board, so, lets move on, forget it, and now with the editing feature disabled, maybe this will not happen anymore.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

BTW Tommy, what was your previous log in name so I can see just what happened to it. I know that you appear not to be in canada from where your posting from because your service provider only covers the 48 states. So this makes is harder to determine who you were prior without going through each and everyones ID. So if you would please just email me with the log in and password of your old ID and let me see if maybe you missed something and can help you get it back online.

I have had another say the same thing and have found that in their case they had to delete the cookies as described in the help section of this board and then they could log on again. Question is, did you consider looking in the help area and try that prior to thinking we'd have any reason to bother your log in? As before, I have better things to do than mess with anyone and only if there is a reason would I consider only after other options have been exhausted locking a person out from posting.

 

[C Willi 01SS]

I worked 12 years with a major valve, crankshaft, o-ring seal supplier to Ford, GM, DiamlerChrysler, Honda, and Toyota. I ran the durability testing department which performed key-life testing to all these mfg's specs. We manufactured our own rubber formulations and stamped our own metal case. I can tell you that a standard ASTM test relied on by each maufacturer called out testing in their "own" oil or Havoline. Rubber "dumbells" cut to a specified shape( just like a dumbbell) then soaked 168hrs x 150°c soaked in a beaker, then tested for modulus, tensile, elongation, change in volume, specific gravity, and hardness. Usually one of the big three specified their own oil.
Ford-Motorcraft/Havoline
Chrysler-Mopar
GM-Agreement to use Havoline
Much longer tests were started with the 168hr. tests all the way up to 1000 hrs. Being a car nut anyway, we threw in some of our favorite brands. We also did wear test with seals installed on electric motor driven heads under extreme heat and cold, its unbelievable what some of these auto makers demand.

Just a little info....sorry so long.

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

I assume all these seals were new unlike in a used motor with grit and grime.

So, in any of those tests, did you see where there was an increase of seal size due to the motor oil?

 

[BOBISTHEOILGUY]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tommy:
David,

Thanks for asking me the question (again presumably) and then locking me out from posting. O.K., maybe it was not you personally, but one of the moderators?

I did not see your question before, as it obviously in one of the many posts that were deleted.

I really am not making a big deal over the o-ring test, but over this board's policy of censoring posts. Someone started a topic called "Questions for Bob that were never answered" regarding this o-ring test and I had these questions on my mind and thought I'd ask - they were relevant questions to the topic. I had no idea that I was entering a forbidden zone in questioning Bob's test.

My point? David, this is a place for discussion - what do you think my point was?

Bob concluded in his o-ring test:

"So at this point, my personal conclusion for this test is that motor oils, full or standard dino oil does not condition seals. This would also stand behind the reasons as to why the Schaeffers 131 Neutra helps stop valve stem leaks (puffing smoke in the morning) whereas motor oils alone don't."

I am just saying that perhaps this has not proven with this test.....again, this is a discussion board. If someone makes a claim that motor oils do not condition seals and that only Schaeffer's Neutra does, than expect to get some opposition to it. I think that any scientist that has ever published test results on anything has to accept the fact that his (or her) methods will come under some scrutiny at some point.

Thanks for your comments Johnny.

---

Tommy, and who ever else has issues here.

I have just recently been accused (more than once) about censorship over stupid things. Come on folks, I have no problem with you asking or tearing me apart for these simple little tests I do. It would seem ridiculous that just because someone has valid points,questions or issues over this, I am not going to remove it. The only time we make any point of removing or striping any posts from a board is when we have personal flames, attacks on credibility that are uncalled for, or accusations of something that 1 has no relevance, 2 has no truth and i'm sure there may even be something else I'm missing but I can assure you , If I feel I need to respond I will.

As for this test and the seal compatibility and statements I made, I will re answer this again.

I make these little tests to do several things..
1-keep things interesting and see what happens IF..
2- maybe expose something that isn't?
3- get people to thinking (out of the box) instead of just taking anyones word for any of it.
4-?

Anyway, I have come to expect many that will not accept my personal opinions/findings.. No problem, I have never had any intention to sell everyone on here on schaeffers as I expect not everyone on here is going to be amsoil/penn/redline/or whatever else.

I try to get in as many oils and such in different tests so to have a more diverse amount of products and generalization of each tests and such.

The end result of these is to walk away with just a little more information that may or may not improve on your knowledge base on lubrication in general.

Should you take this to heart one way or another and get upset? of course not.

I try to make sure I post all information that I know so it gives you more info about the tests so that you can draw a better conclusion as to what you may think is valid or not. Case in point...

The oil's and additive's were not heated.. That was a given since I stated it was left sitting in these products at room temps.

I posted a picture of the measuring device.. Was it good enough? It showed me what I was looking for, did it for you? No? then why chew on me about it, get your equipment out and go for it.. we all would love to see it taken a bit further. No problem.

What type of o rings are they? I have no idea.. I'm not a rubber specialist.. figured that going to an automotive store, getting o rings that are use in the automotive industry was adequate. What type of valve stem seals are they? Again, No idea, there's a picture of both for you experts that know what they are comprised of so tell us then all of us will know as i really don't care because am I going to know which vehicle has which kind of seal? Nope, I know I wont. Like auto rx, The product seems to work on most anything I have ever used it on, tranny seals, rear main seals, valve stem seals, p/s seals.. so what type of seals are all of those? Of course it has not worked on a many applications as well, why? seals too far gone? this happens. But why no heat in the test? well, I have no way of maintaining a constant continued heat supply and even if i did, I'm sure someone out there would criticize that it was too hot or not hot enough so why bother. The point I wanted to see is, Like a lot of chemicals/oils, many will also take effect just stagnate. Look at the breakdown on the deposits that fell off the seals just sitting there. If one shows better deposit removal just sitting stagnate, imagine when heat and agitation is applied.

So point is, Look at it, debate and discuss it, pick it apart. Thats what it is there fore, but don't come at me accusing me of things i have no reason to do nor want to because I simple don't want it to happen that way. This board is open to all basic topics, good or bad, and many of you know I have endured a lot of negativity about the Schaeffers oils compared to others, I even post stuff I believe to be right when in fact I'm corrected by some of the chemical and lubrication engineers.. This is how I have learned and this is why the board has been the way it is.. CENSORSHIP? sorry, I sure had no reason to delete the original thread.

Let me also post one other thing maybe those of you so quick to point fingers at me might want to consider.

This is the first time I have had the pleasure of having such a good board. The program was a purchased can program, therefore, I am learning all the Little quirks involved in maintaining it. Being a database type of program, it has indexes and such that periodically require re-indexing and such and quite frankly I'm wondering if we are having another problem here with some of these posts falling off for some reason. We have some excellent moderators that both are very level headed and has executed good judgment on the very few personal issues that don't go with the way we are trying to keep this board. I myself do not like nor appreciate being flat out accused of doing something I had nothing to do with and if any of the moderators do make any changes, they advise me so that I am aware of any problems normally occurred. But thanks to most all of you with the exception of just a very small few, this has been an excellent, well received board and for that I thank you.

Hopefully this answers all of your questions on the seals, tools, heat, and testing procedures, and hopefully we finally put this accusations of censorship to rest.

May I please ask that If you have any problems with how this board is run, you have 2 steps to take..
1-(best option)- contact me personally via email or ph, lets discuss it, resolve it without slamming the board or personal attacks(especially without proof) on any one person. Now if that doesn't work... then option 2.
2- quietly leave and our thanks to your doing it in such an adult manner than to trash up this board with your personal problems.

regards to all of you,
bob