Really looking for some input on this one. I have been talking to oil industry people over the last couple of weeks about European OEM approved oils. I have looked at quite a few product data sheets and oil analysis of many the usual brands and while they all seem acceptable they all appear much the same in formulation. Not finding products that really stand out from the crowd. Here is how the approval process has been explained to me. So Infinium, Afton and Lubrizol have the formulations for various OEM motor oils. All formulations are on the minimum requirement side and very close in formulation. Any company seeking an OEM approval simply purchases one of these formulations and pays the OEM the $25,000 or so and Wala they are on the company website as an approved motor oil. The process of a company certifying a unique formulation on their own has been described to me as either not possible or far too expensive to venture into. If in fact this basic process as I outlined is correct then I see value in this process for creating peace of mind and confidence that a product meets minimum requirements. What bothers me though is that consumers and repair facilities interpret these approvals as a stamp of superior quality and that is not the case. Companies making far superior and Unique products are often stigmatized. A friend of mine recently took a vehicle into a repair facility with a very high end PAO oil that outperforms the OEM fill in every way and ended up in a ridiculous argument that use of this fluid would void the warranty. I’m not sure how you fix the system but it seems The current one does not encourage creativity and innovation in the market.
Not sure I want to use OEM approved oil
- Thread starter Lubefan
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Without extensive controlled testing and tear-downs making that claim is impossible.
Yes, Mobil/Shell (infineum) and Lubrizol...etc sell pre-approved additive packages for applications that, when mixed with an approved base oil blend will yield an approved product without the blender having to do the testing themselves. That doesn't mean that the major players who actually design those additives packages use them in their own products.
You look at products like Ravenol, which have wildly different additive packages from the majors and still have all the OE approvals and it is clear that there are many different ways to skin this cat while staying within the envelope of an approved product.
When you look at test sequences like A40, it is clear that the OEM's put serious emphasis on actual in-service performance of these products far beyond basic bench testing.
What a collection of nonsense. For one thing despite everyone’s desperate beliefs to the contrary UOA and PDS are neither a definition of quality nor do they indicate compliance with approvals and specifications.
And your assertion that an oil that just happens to have a high concentration of a certain basestock is somehow superior is also misguided. I no longer work in a research laboratory but when I did, I could have formulated you a motor oil that met all of the base stock and spectrographic analysis markers you’re describing but would have damaged your engine in short order. Assuming that story about your friend is even correct you really have no idea whether or not there was something wrong with the engine or the oil was misused by the owner in too long of an OCI or other means.
You guys that come on here and wish to throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to approvals, specifications and licenses are barking up some weird tree. The truth is, approvals do indicate the performance of the oil in real world conditions and are an accurate indication of the quality of the finished product. We’ve heard that argument before, are you the same guy?
So what is the case? Care to elaborate with sound technical data?
Not sure you arent Trolling. nice first post.
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Kinda left out all kinds of required oil tests and engine tests … both bench tests and long term “taxi tests”
So, I worked on oil approvals and it is not at all how you describe. Numerous times discussed here, if you want to educate yourself, go ahead. I really don’t have patience to engage in such “discussion.”
I will however say that you should maybe work on further education about oils bcs. you stated “as I outlined” trying to imply that you know something about this subject, when all evidence is to the contrary.
BUNK ! Reason a moment, how much more than $25K would the auto manufacturer lose in warranty claims, loss of reputation and consequently loss of sales. Indeed oil manufaturers have to pay to be listed in the "Approved" list, but only after the've met manufacturer's specifications.
Approval for oil goes around $5k.
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Definitely seems like a troll post.
When I read the title, my first thought was - This must be another 0w-20?? thread...
Just fishing, to put it mildly.
In Europe?
Yes for VW approved oil (3000 euros), but e.g. for PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) it was 70,000 euros (83,000 $), according the folowing document
https://www.ueil.org/wp-content/uploads/UEILTechnicalBulletin_July10.pdf
For e.g. FIAT - no one (can) have approval except Petronas/Selenia.
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That supports even more what I said above.
Thank you for your responses. Some of them are a bit harsh and some of them make good points and yes I definitely need to learn more about the approval process I am just digging into the subject. I literally just signed up today here and this is my first post. Full disclosure on who I am. I own a small supply company primarily selling package goods of all major brands of oil and I also sell bulk kegs drums and totes of private labels and major brands. I have no direct relationship with any oil company. I am closely affiliated with an antifreeze manufacture. I also do quite a bit of purchasing and selling of liquidation and leaking type inventories. In a nutshell I just want to sell whatever I can of any brand. I mention all of that because I’m not sure where the trolling accusation is coming from. I guess I have always been a little frustrated about OE approvals because of my experience on the antifreeze side. The antifreeze business is not nearly as bad as the oil business and likely for good reason because liability of a motor is much higher than cooling systems. On antifreeze the majority of companies will meet ASTM specs and that is usually sufficient for most but you get a few people from time to time that want to see you on some official approval list. I can tell you for a fact that the big boys can get put on the list with just a phone call and smaller companies can spend A lot of money with no guarantee they will ever be on it. It’s funny that somebody said this looks like a 0W 20 post. I have not checked that post yet but yes in fact my buddy Took his own motor oil to the dealer after lab analysis on his brand new X5 came back with 4 categories not meeting spec on the oil at just 3000 miles when he had it changed. I don’t know any of the details on it but he said the lab report was run by Polaris. Maybe I can get a copy of it and black out his information. Yes I am aware on the domestic side that it’s about $4000 to purchase an API existing formulation. We all know of great brands that have little exposure to the mass market. Far too many of them feel that the approval process on some Euro oils is a hill to big to climb. To be fair some of them likely feel this way because they know there market penetration would be minimal at best so why make the investment. I did not mention it in my original post but most of my inquiries with industry people were focused mostly on Bmw approval process and a little bit about Mercedes.
Some approvals or big hills to climb because they are very difficult to meet performance wise. There is a good and technical reason for that. You do have a lot to learn.
The manufacturer built the engine, knows it inside out and feels a certain spec would be better for the engine and their image than another spec. What's to doubt?
That's the understatement of the decade.
I'd suggest he starts with punctuation and formatting. Those giant blocks of text are hard to read.
