Noob question

Joined
Apr 7, 2008
Messages
4
Location
NJ
I've been lurking here and got some good advise. I now use Pennzoil YB in my car and stay away from Fram. I use a genuine Subaru filter... should I open that can of worms again??? Here's my question. I'm starting to accumulate a lot of quarter filled bottles of oil, can I pour them all together and use them later? And how long can I store them? Thanks.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Messages
8,711
Location
Nothern USA
I am a big believer in picking a product and sticking with it. However now that you have reformed, I would use up the old stuff a little at a time, perhaps for topping up if you have to.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2008
Messages
4,627
Location
Western Washington
No problem at all pouring quarter filled bottles of PYB together and using them. You can store them for quite a while without problems, just keep them clean and stored properly.
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
782
Location
Alberta
 Quote:
stay away from Fram.
Fram filters are fine. Don't listen to the internet hype and Fram bashing that has been fueled by some of the filter studies that cut open filters and just look at them to decide technical merit. Fram makes a whole line of filters from the less expensive Extra Guard to better filters like the Xtended Guard and High Mileage filter. The dismissing of all Fram filters based on the fiberboard endcaps of the less expensive EG demonstrates a bias by dismissing all Fram filters, when some people consider their higher end filters quite good.
 Quote:
I'm starting to accumulate a lot of quarter filled bottles of oil, can I pour them all together and use them later? And how long can I store them?
Yup mix away. And the oils will stay fine in sealed containers for years and years.
 
Joined
Apr 17, 2006
Messages
98
Location
Minneapolis, MN
I run fram all the time. They are fine in my opinion. The only valve noise I've ever heard on my trucks at startup we with two Napa Gold filters a couple of years back. People on this board love the Napa Gold, But it's the only filter I've ever had problems with.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
2,967
Location
Kansas City
Recently acquired a Fram xtra guard in a oil and filter deal. I bought the oil for the cycle, and will use the PH3614 on my next OCI on the Tacoma. It will be a 5K interval, and not skeered in the least. Used them for years on my old '91 Toyota PU and it went to 180k before it's life ended in a rear end accident.
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
6,931
Location
NH
 Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
 Quote:
stay away from Fram.
Fram filters are fine. Don't listen to the internet hype and Fram bashing that has been fueled by some of the filter studies that cut open filters and just look at them to decide technical merit. Fram makes a whole line of filters from the less expensive Extra Guard to better filters like the Xtended Guard and High Mileage filter. The dismissing of all Fram filters based on the fiberboard endcaps of the less expensive EG demonstrates a bias by dismissing all Fram filters, when some people consider their higher end filters quite good.
 Quote:
I'm starting to accumulate a lot of quarter filled bottles of oil, can I pour them all together and use them later? And how long can I store them?
Yup mix away. And the oils will stay fine in sealed containers for years and years.
It is much more than hype. Fram filters are poorly constructed using cheap materials. Why people continue to argue against that, when it has been proven, is beyond me?
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
782
Location
Alberta
 Quote:
It is much more than hype. Fram filters are poorly constructed using cheap materials. Why people continue to argue against that, when it has been proven, is beyond me?
This is the type of sweeping nonsensical statements I'm talking about. All Fram filters are lousy? Please. It's Fram bashing hype that has been fueled by some of the filter studies that have little technical merit. You must be one of those guys that likes pretty metal endcaps because of they look all cute and shinny rather than function better than fiberboard endcaps. Co'mon, it's not a trophy you cut open and hang on your wall. If it's been proven that all Fram filters are lousy, then tell me about the supposed "cheap" materials and "poor construction" of the Fram Xtended Guard filter compared to other filters.
 
Joined
Apr 5, 2004
Messages
9,427
Location
Pensacola & Vero Beach FL
 Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
. . . This is the type of sweeping nonsensical statements I'm talking about. All Fram filters are lousy? Please. It's Fram bashing hype that has been fueled by some of the filter studies that have little technical merit. You must be one of those guys that likes pretty metal endcaps because of they look all cute and shinny rather than function better than fiberboard endcaps. Co'mon, it's not a trophy you cut open and hang on your wall. . . .
Take it easy there, DB. Let's distill the basics minus the "hype modifiers". In fact, other than the TG line, the Fram filters ARE very cheaply made. On a number of occasions, I have posted a photo I took a few years back in which I easily crushed an entire Fram filter element, paper endcaps, center tube, and all, with one bare hand. It took about as much effort, maybe a little more, as it takes to crush an empty soda can with your hand. I prefer the metal end cap designs, because the element pleats are cemented (in most brands) firmly into the end caps. this provides a very strong unit, and one that is certainly not easily collapsed, whether by hand, or a severe overpressure condition in your engine. To be very clear, I don't like the metal end designs because they're pretty. Honestly, that's a bogus couter-argument against the metal cap designs. Much better would be that which I freely acknowledge: as much as I am suspicious of the paper endcap design, obviously, they're working for the vast majority of people who use them. Just as with 20wt oils, Frams have been around for years, and we're not seeing any mass failures. The other problems I have with Fram are that they have very cheaply made bypass valve designs (easily hand-broken plastic in key parts), the can shell itself is so thin that it's the only one so far that collapses when I use my pipe cutter to try to open it, and the Fram baseplate is much thinner and lighter than anyone else's. Here's a hypo to summarize my position: If I was changing my oil, engine is drained, and I'd messed up the old filter removing it, only to discover that I'd forgotten to get the new filter, and my neighbor happened to have an OCOD (orange can of death -- hey let me have a little fun with this...), I would certainly use it, though not with full comfort. What it really comes down to for me is not so much fear of failure, but rather, comparative value. I can walk from my office to a NAPA store that's a couple blocks away, and get a superbly made NAPA gold for about the same price as a Fram. For me, this begs the question of why would I ever bother with a Fram? I simply get more margin and more quality for the money. So yes, I'll join those who recommend staying away from Fram. Not for emotional, irrational, pack-mentality hatred; but rather, because I'll take the filter that gives me more for the same money. What's so wrong with that idea?
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
47,087
Location
Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: ekpolk
 Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
. . . This is the type of sweeping nonsensical statements I'm talking about. All Fram filters are lousy? Please. It's Fram bashing hype that has been fueled by some of the filter studies that have little technical merit. You must be one of those guys that likes pretty metal endcaps because of they look all cute and shinny rather than function better than fiberboard endcaps. Co'mon, it's not a trophy you cut open and hang on your wall. . . .
Take it easy there, DB. Let's distill the basics minus the "hype modifiers". In fact, other than the TG line, the Fram filters ARE very cheaply made. On a number of occasions, I have posted a photo I took a few years back in which I easily crushed an entire Fram filter element, paper endcaps, center tube, and all, with one bare hand. It took about as much effort, maybe a little more, as it takes to crush an empty soda can with your hand. I prefer the metal end cap designs, because the element pleats are cemented (in most brands) firmly into the end caps. this provides a very strong unit, and one that is certainly not easily collapsed, whether by hand, or a severe overpressure condition in your engine. To be very clear, I don't like the metal end designs because they're pretty. Honestly, that's a bogus couter-argument against the metal cap designs. Much better would be that which I freely acknowledge: as much as I am suspicious of the paper endcap design, obviously, they're working for the vast majority of people who use them. Just as with 20wt oils, Frams have been around for years, and we're not seeing any mass failures. The other problems I have with Fram are that they have very cheaply made bypass valve designs (easily hand-broken plastic in key parts), the can shell itself is so thin that it's the only one so far that collapses when I use my pipe cutter to try to open it, and the Fram baseplate is much thinner and lighter than anyone else's. Here's a hypo to summarize my position: If I was changing my oil, engine is drained, and I'd messed up the old filter removing it, only to discover that I'd forgotten to get the new filter, and my neighbor happened to have an OCOD (orange can of death -- hey let me have a little fun with this...), I would certainly use it, though not with full comfort. What it really comes down to for me is not so much fear of failure, but rather, comparative value. I can walk from my office to a NAPA store that's a couple blocks away, and get a superbly made NAPA gold for about the same price as a Fram. For me, this begs the question of why would I ever bother with a Fram? I simply get more margin and more quality for the money. So yes, I'll join those who recommend staying away from Fram. Not for emotional, irrational, pack-mentality hatred; but rather, because I'll take the filter that gives me more for the same money. What's so wrong with that idea?
+1 Great post!
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
47,087
Location
Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: gfh77665
No Fram for me. Waaaaaay too easy to get a higher quality filter at the same (or even lower) price. No brainer!
Exactly: The FRAM was actually the MORE expensive of these two filters: FRAM TG: Motorcraft:
 
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
6,931
Location
NH
 Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
 Originally Posted By: ekpolk
 Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
. . . This is the type of sweeping nonsensical statements I'm talking about. All Fram filters are lousy? Please. It's Fram bashing hype that has been fueled by some of the filter studies that have little technical merit. You must be one of those guys that likes pretty metal endcaps because of they look all cute and shinny rather than function better than fiberboard endcaps. Co'mon, it's not a trophy you cut open and hang on your wall. . . .
Take it easy there, DB. Let's distill the basics minus the "hype modifiers". In fact, other than the TG line, the Fram filters ARE very cheaply made. On a number of occasions, I have posted a photo I took a few years back in which I easily crushed an entire Fram filter element, paper endcaps, center tube, and all, with one bare hand. It took about as much effort, maybe a little more, as it takes to crush an empty soda can with your hand. I prefer the metal end cap designs, because the element pleats are cemented (in most brands) firmly into the end caps. this provides a very strong unit, and one that is certainly not easily collapsed, whether by hand, or a severe overpressure condition in your engine. To be very clear, I don't like the metal end designs because they're pretty. Honestly, that's a bogus couter-argument against the metal cap designs. Much better would be that which I freely acknowledge: as much as I am suspicious of the paper endcap design, obviously, they're working for the vast majority of people who use them. Just as with 20wt oils, Frams have been around for years, and we're not seeing any mass failures. The other problems I have with Fram are that they have very cheaply made bypass valve designs (easily hand-broken plastic in key parts), the can shell itself is so thin that it's the only one so far that collapses when I use my pipe cutter to try to open it, and the Fram baseplate is much thinner and lighter than anyone else's. Here's a hypo to summarize my position: If I was changing my oil, engine is drained, and I'd messed up the old filter removing it, only to discover that I'd forgotten to get the new filter, and my neighbor happened to have an OCOD (orange can of death -- hey let me have a little fun with this...), I would certainly use it, though not with full comfort. What it really comes down to for me is not so much fear of failure, but rather, comparative value. I can walk from my office to a NAPA store that's a couple blocks away, and get a superbly made NAPA gold for about the same price as a Fram. For me, this begs the question of why would I ever bother with a Fram? I simply get more margin and more quality for the money. So yes, I'll join those who recommend staying away from Fram. Not for emotional, irrational, pack-mentality hatred; but rather, because I'll take the filter that gives me more for the same money. What's so wrong with that idea?
+1 Great post!
I agree. No need for me to even respond to the Framite even though the original comment was directed at me. I sold that cheap [censored] for years and saw failures with them. Funny how everyone says there is no evidence that the filters are junk or "assume" we are going by what others say without any basis for our feelings. However, when we mention our experience involving that evidence they don't believe us or ignore it. You can't win with people that love and defend Fram. That is cool with me. Run what you want. I know better.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
782
Location
Alberta
 Quote:
On a number of occasions, I have posted a photo I took a few years back in which I easily crushed an entire Fram filter element, paper endcaps, center tube, and all, with one bare hand.
This could probably be done with a lot of cheaper filters, and perhaps you had a defective filter. So you get metal endcaps -- you can still end up with a lousy filter … Motocraft filter " When I tried to pry the folds of the filter apart to inspect in between them, the cardboard completely crumbled apart in my fingers with almost no effort! I've never seen this happen before. … I've never seen a filter with such thin, flimsy, weak, filter material either." Champion e-core filters use fiber endcaps and a plastic inner cage, which probably isn't even as strong as a Fram EG cage.
 Quote:
The other problems I have with Fram are that they have very cheaply made bypass valve designs
Almost all low end filters have "cheaply" made ADBV's. If there is a test that shows these ADBV don't perform their function as well as other designs, then present the tests to show this. Otherwise, the opinion "I don't like the looks" of the ADBV's doesn't have much merit. The product is the being completely dismissed or disparaged on a non-technical basis. And there is anecdotal evidence pointing to that most ADBV's that don't seal well on occasion. So is this just a problem with low end Frams like the EG? All Frams? Or, it is the case that cheaper low-end filters all pretty well have generally lousy ADBV's? I recall reading some test where they tested the ADBV's on some filters and the author stated that 90% of the ADBV's didn't really seal that well -- across various brands. (I tried googling that report but couldn't find it).
 Quote:
What it really comes down to for me is not so much fear of failure, but rather, comparative value. I can walk from my office to a NAPA store that's a couple blocks away, and get a superbly made NAPA gold for about the same price as a Fram. For me, this begs the question of why would I ever bother with a Fram? I simply get more margin and more quality for the money.
How do you know it's a better filter? Do you have flow tests, particulate filtration tests, drain-back flap efficiency tests, bypass valve test, media bursting tests? Not likely. You just don't like the looks of the Fram EG. Jeepsunlimited had a filter test up a while ago (no longer can find it) …. Fram Extra Guard ($2.37) Napa Gold ($7.85) Pure One (Puralator) ($6.35) And Fram EG performed on par with the 2 much more expensive filters. So I’d say that’s looking pretty good for the price. Just because one filter LOOKS better to someone, doesn’t mean it will PERFORM better. In this test (somewhat old 1995) filter test the Fram filter performed fine. NHHEMI made what I thought was an unfounded slam against all Fram filters, and I called him it. In my view it amounted to senseless Fram bashing. Even the low end Fram EG appears to hold together well and filter decently. Some of the better Fram filters like the XG appear to be very well made filters. So why disparage "Fram" as a whole? Buy a more expensive better looking filter and you can still get this … Bosch filter " The friggin leaf spring was put in upside down like this: And the center tube only had half the holes as normal: 2nd time I've bought a Purolator clone that's been all messed up." And then there is this … AC Delco filter "I personally think that AC Delco is making some cheap or defective PF46 filters. Here is what happened to me TWICE. … a year ago I had a problem when I started the truck up I had NO OIL PRESSURE on the gauge and the LOW OIL PRESSURE warning message came on. … … NOW - flash forward to this week. I take a camping trip, Truck has around 3,000 miles on the oil change - where I had to use a Delco filter (PF46) because that's all they had. I get 2 states away, stop for gas. Restart the truck - you guessed it NO OIL PRESSURE again! " And this … ST filter "I have two problems with this filter: 1.) The gasket always seems to fall off very easily. It's happened on two out of two ST6607's I've purchased. And 2.) In this filter, the pleats are all distorted." Sure, Fram will probably make the odd defective filter too, but my experience with Fram's (even the low end EG) have been nothing but good.
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
47,087
Location
Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
 Quote:
On a number of occasions, I have posted a photo I took a few years back in which I easily crushed an entire Fram filter element, paper endcaps, center tube, and all, with one bare hand.
This could probably be done with a lot of cheaper filters, and perhaps you had a defective filter. So you get metal endcaps -- you can still end up with a lousy filter … Motocraft filter " When I tried to pry the folds of the filter apart to inspect in between them, the cardboard completely crumbled apart in my fingers with almost no effort! I've never seen this happen before. … I've never seen a filter with such thin, flimsy, weak, filter material either." Champion e-core filters use fiber endcaps and a plastic inner cage, which probably isn't even as strong as a Fram EG cage.
 Quote:
The other problems I have with Fram are that they have very cheaply made bypass valve designs
Almost all low end filters have "cheaply" made ADBV's. If there is a test that shows these ADBV don't perform their function as well as other designs, then present the tests to show this. Otherwise, the opinion "I don't like the looks" of the ADBV's doesn't have much merit. The product is the being completely dismissed or disparaged on a non-technical basis. And there is anecdotal evidence pointing to that most ADBV's that don't seal well on occasion. So is this just a problem with low end Frams like the EG? All Frams? Or, it is the case that cheaper low-end filters all pretty well have generally lousy ADBV's? I recall reading some test where they tested the ADBV's on some filters and the author stated that 90% of the ADBV's didn't really seal that well -- across various brands. (I tried googling that report but couldn't find it).
 Quote:
What it really comes down to for me is not so much fear of failure, but rather, comparative value. I can walk from my office to a NAPA store that's a couple blocks away, and get a superbly made NAPA gold for about the same price as a Fram. For me, this begs the question of why would I ever bother with a Fram? I simply get more margin and more quality for the money.
How do you know it's a better filter? Do you have flow tests, particulate filtration tests, drain-back flap efficiency tests, bypass valve test, media bursting tests? Not likely. You just don't like the looks of the Fram EG. Jeepsunlimited had a filter test up a while ago (no longer can find it) …. Fram Extra Guard ($2.37) Napa Gold ($7.85) Pure One (Puralator) ($6.35) And Fram EG performed on par with the 2 much more expensive filters. So I’d say that’s looking pretty good for the price. Just because one filter LOOKS better to someone, doesn’t mean it will PERFORM better. In this test (somewhat old 1995) filter test the Fram filter performed fine. NHHEMI made an unfounded slam against all Fram filters and I called him it. In my view it amounted to senseless Fram bashing. Even the low end Fram EG appears to hold together well and filter decently. Buy a more expensive better looking filter and you can still get this … Bosch filter " The friggin leaf spring was put in upside down like this: And the center tube only had half the holes as normal: 2nd time I've bought a Purolator clone that's been all messed up." And then there is this … AC Delco filter "I personally think that AC Delco is making some cheap or defective PF46 filters. Here is what happened to me TWICE. … a year ago I had a problem when I started the truck up I had NO OIL PRESSURE on the gauge and the LOW OIL PRESSURE warning message came on. … … NOW - flash forward to this week. I take a camping trip, Truck has around 3,000 miles on the oil change - where I had to use a Delco filter (PF46) because that's all they had. I get 2 states away, stop for gas. Restart the truck - you guessed it NO OIL PRESSURE again! " And this … ST filter "I have two problems with this filter: 1.) The gasket always seems to fall off very easily. It's happened on two out of two ST6607's I've purchased. And 2.) In this filter, the pleats are all distorted." Sure, Fram will probably make the odd defective filter too, but my experience with Fram's (even the low end EG) have been nothing but good.
I'm not sure how posting of a list of obvious manufacturing defects who's likeliness of occurrence is in the fractions of a percentile in certain filters "makes a case" for FRAM. The FRAM ADBV "seals" against the "cardboard" top. Now, take a look at this picture (which is a TYPICAL FL-1A crossed FRAM): Tell me how you are going to PROPERLY seal against that surface? Other than the centre tube, there is NO support, and massive room for deflection under elevated PSID or even oil volume. Again, I am NOT knocking the FILTERING ability of the filter. I am knocking the CONSTRUCTION PROCESS, which is CHEAP. If we look at the top of a PureONE (or any other Purolator filter): It is VERY easy to see where the base of the ADBV SEALS against the RIGID METAL TOP of the filtering cartridge. The little "ticks" around the top, are from the bracing on the back of the ADBV to aide in its functionality. My argument, which echoes ekpolks is that there are simply BETTER CONSTRUCTED filters for the money, included the aforementioned Motorcraft I posted which was almost HALF the price of the FRAM TG, but has a ADBV which has an obviously sealing advantage. In this picture of the TG, we see the ADBV and where it "seals" against the filter top, and the bypass valve, which is expected to "seal" against the cardboard end-caps, which my previous picture shows, deflect:
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
782
Location
Alberta
 Quote:
I'm not sure how posting of a list of obvious manufacturing defects who's likeliness of occurrence is in the fractions of a percentile in certain filters "makes a case" for FRAM.
Yes, but did the Motocraft filter have defective media, or just cheap media that was soured from a Chinese manufacturer that wasn't quite making the media to proper spec's? You may have a nice looking filter that is using media that doesn't hold up.
 Quote:
It is VERY easy to see where the base of the ADBV SEALS against the RIGID METAL TOP of the filtering cartridge. The little "ticks" around the top, are from the bracing on the back of the ADBV to aide in its functionality.
If the vast majority of ADBV's don't really seal well (including the metal endcap ones with silicon ADBV's), and assuming what I read about ADBV's is correct, then what's the point? It just becomes a "feel good" feature based on looks that isn't really performing any better than the design in an EG Fram would anyway. I sometimes think that with modern clean running engines, better gasoline's, and great Group II based SM/GF-4 oils, that a filter may not matter that much, and one could probably run a an empty tin can in place of the filter and still get 300k miles out of an engine.
 

OVERKILL

$100 Site Donor 2021
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
47,087
Location
Ontario, Canada
 Originally Posted By: Drivebelt
 Quote:
I'm not sure how posting of a list of obvious manufacturing defects who's likeliness of occurrence is in the fractions of a percentile in certain filters "makes a case" for FRAM.
Yes, but did the Motocraft filter have defective media, or just cheap media that was soured from a Chinese manufacturer that wasn't quite making the media to proper spec's? You may have a nice looking filter that is using media that doesn't hold up.
That's a stretch. The Motorcraft filters are made in the USA. I've had NO ISSUE CUTTING the media out of them with an exacto knife. In fact, this brings me to a story: The last Motorcraft filter I posted on here, I used a single C-clamp, clamped it to a wall, stretched it out, and measured the surface area of the media. The same FRAM TG I just posted pictures of, when I tried that, the media ripped off. So I tried TWO clamps, the media ripped AGAIN, so I had to have somebody HOLD IT, and we GENTLY stretched it out to perform the same function. So, going by that, should I now state that ALL FRAM TG's have junk media that rips apart with ease? I won't, I will refrain from making such statements until I have had MANY of them apart and could make such a statement with confidence. I have had NUMEROUS Motorcraft filters apart, both of the FL-1A and FL820S variety, and NONE have had any brittle or suspect media, none have torn when stretched out to measure surface area.
 Quote:
 Quote:
It is VERY easy to see where the base of the ADBV SEALS against the RIGID METAL TOP of the filtering cartridge. The little "ticks" around the top, are from the bracing on the back of the ADBV to aide in its functionality.
If the vast majority of ADBV's don't really seal well (including the metal endcap ones with silicon ADBV's), and assuming what I read about ADBV's is correct, then what's the point? It just becomes a "feel good" feature based on looks that isn't really performing any better than the design in an EG Fram would anyway.
I have checked 4 Donaldson filters, and 4 Fleetguard PL160002 filters using the "blow test" and in ALL of them, the ADBV has sealed perfectly. The reason for Ford using the Silicone ADBV in the FL820S is to prevent start-up noise, and I would hazard to say that the overwhelming majority of these filters have properly sealing ADBV's.
 Quote:
I sometimes think that with modern clean running engines, better gasoline's, and great Group II based SM/GF-4 oils, that a filter may not matter that much, and one could probably run a an empty tin can in place of the filter and still get 300k miles out of an engine.
You are welcome to try it
 
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
782
Location
Alberta
 Originally Posted By: ekpolk
So yes, I'll join those who recommend staying away from Fram. Not for emotional, irrational, pack-mentality hatred; but rather, because I'll take the filter that gives me more for the same money. What's so wrong with that idea?
I concede that filters like the EG are pretty wimpy looking filters, and I don't blame a lot of people for avoiding them based on that. Although, if they hold together and filter decently, they may have appeal for some people with older or "beater" cars that just want some readily available filter to use. Cheers.
 
Top