Newer BMW burning oil...
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Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
I could buy both points. My simple Toyota's seem easy to repair, but all the recent Toyota's seem to get nothing but dinged over various problems. Shades of the old "just more stuff to go wrong"? Pretty sure BMW et al are well rated on the other side of the pond. Wonder if their more simple models are considered bulletproof. Probably helps to have decent mechanics too, nothing breaks any car like hack work.
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
I could buy both points. My simple Toyota's seem easy to repair, but all the recent Toyota's seem to get nothing but dinged over various problems. Shades of the old "just more stuff to go wrong"? Pretty sure BMW et al are well rated on the other side of the pond. Wonder if their more simple models are considered bulletproof. Probably helps to have decent mechanics too, nothing breaks any car like hack work.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Have you actually owned BMW? Or you just seen, heard and read?
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Have you actually owned BMW? Or you just seen, heard and read?
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Have you actually owned BMW? Or you just seen, heard and read?
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Have you actually owned BMW? Or you just seen, heard and read?
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
Originally Posted by wemay
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
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Originally Posted by Skippy722
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by wemay
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
Yes, that's the other side of the coin, and just as silly. The answer is always somewhere in the middle.
Originally Posted by wemay
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
Yes, that's the other side of the coin, and just as silly. The answer is always somewhere in the middle.
Originally Posted by Skippy722
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
Originally Posted by wemay
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by wemay
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
Yes, that's the other side of the coin, and just as silly. The answer is always somewhere in the middle.
I own two Toyota's, and BMW (and owned before 6 of them). If tomorrow I needed to get rid of one vehicle, trust me it would not be BMW.
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by wemay
Think about that question....why would someone want to own something that has a reputation for being less than reliable unless reliability isn't tops on their list? It's ok to agree the BMW drives better but not so that Toyota is more reliable? And many of those same BMW owners wouldn't be caught in a Toyota because "it's an appliance." Having....never owned a Toyota. Online reviews, innumerable reliability publications and owner written reviews bear this out and give you enough information to make an informed decision. I own a VW. I doubt it will be nearly as reliable as my Hyundai. But, to a certain extent, I'm ok with that.
I think the issue is that Toyota's are portrayed as these "nothing ever goes wrong ever!" vehicles while BMW's are generally regarded as "OMG ITS GOING TO BLOW UP AS SOON AS THE WARRANTY IS OVER!!!" on these forums. Neither is 100% true.
Yes, that's the other side of the coin, and just as silly. The answer is always somewhere in the middle.
I own two Toyota's, and BMW (and owned before 6 of them). If tomorrow I needed to get rid of one vehicle, trust me it would not be BMW.
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How is TCO after high miles? I'm going to guess it is different when comparing stateside to Europe. For the non-luxury models of each brand.
I could see this following a crazy S curve. If you get out at the right time, it's great. If not... I know I've done nothing on my wife's Camry, but at some point it's going to explode in costs. So if I get rid of it soon, TCO might be at its best. If I run it for another 100k, maybe it'll cost more than a BMW/MB/whatever?
I could see this following a crazy S curve. If you get out at the right time, it's great. If not... I know I've done nothing on my wife's Camry, but at some point it's going to explode in costs. So if I get rid of it soon, TCO might be at its best. If I run it for another 100k, maybe it'll cost more than a BMW/MB/whatever?
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Have you actually owned BMW? Or you just seen, heard and read?
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
There is nothing strange. Toyota is awful making anything complex that is not hybrid. Their diesels are absolute POS, and that is where they source BMW engines. They ventured alone into small diesel market and hit ground on landing really hard.
They sourced now complete vehicle for new Supra, bcs. they lost that know-how long time ago.
Umm...
Judging by BMW's general reliability record, BMW obviously ain't too hot at making anything complex, either!
In fact, from what I've seen, heard, and read about BMW, it is precisely that (unneeded) complexity that has been, and is, their downfall, reliability-wise.
It is by avoiding this needless over-engineering and complexity that Toyota has been able to maintain their reputation for dependability.
Have you actually owned BMW? Or you just seen, heard and read?
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
Quote
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
I owned 6, including BMW X5 35d with SCR system. SO far, by large margin most expensive vehicle to maintain was/is Toyota Land Cruiser Prado 3.0 D-4D.
Toyota's are good when it comes to very simple engineering. When things get complex, they still have infant issues that Germans solved some 30 years ago. That gives you answer why Toyota does not bring their complex engines to the US. There is nothing more fitting for Land Cruiser or 4Runner than good turbo diesel engine. But....
Yes, my Sienna is going to be cheaper to maintain than my BMW or VW. But then again, similarly reliable would be BMW with engine that has technology from 1995.
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
I owned 6, including BMW X5 35d with SCR system. SO far, by large margin most expensive vehicle to maintain was/is Toyota Land Cruiser Prado 3.0 D-4D.
Toyota's are good when it comes to very simple engineering. When things get complex, they still have infant issues that Germans solved some 30 years ago. That gives you answer why Toyota does not bring their complex engines to the US. There is nothing more fitting for Land Cruiser or 4Runner than good turbo diesel engine. But....
Yes, my Sienna is going to be cheaper to maintain than my BMW or VW. But then again, similarly reliable would be BMW with engine that has technology from 1995.
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Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
On the surface it appears so, but it makes sense from a $$ perspective. Toyota would loose their shirt designing an I6 shoe-horned into a new two-seater platform which they could sell in the near-luxury market. The BMW Z4 and Supra would never have been built without the sharing of development costs.
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
On the surface it appears so, but it makes sense from a $$ perspective. Toyota would loose their shirt designing an I6 shoe-horned into a new two-seater platform which they could sell in the near-luxury market. The BMW Z4 and Supra would never have been built without the sharing of development costs.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
They are in some ways. The segment in which they operate requires them to push the envelope in terms of performance while maintaining efficiency. The trade off is long-term reliability. Toyota skews towards reliability at the expense of efficiency. For example has not released a fleet engine which makes over 100 hp/liter which skew towards reliability. BMW has been doing it 100hp+/Liter since 2007 (I don't consider M-engines a "Fleet engine", but the S54 (Maybe S52) back in the late 1999's was making over 100 hp/liter) The 100 hp/liter threshold raises all sorts of issues around heat management and efficiency but BMW makes it work. Case in point it the 2020 Lexus IS350 which makes 314 hp out of a 3.5 liter V6 (89 hp/liter). BMW M340 makes 382 hp out off a 3 liter I6 (127hp/liter). Both have the same hwy FE (30 mpg) but BMW edges out the Lexus in the city because of stop-start.
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
They are in some ways. The segment in which they operate requires them to push the envelope in terms of performance while maintaining efficiency. The trade off is long-term reliability. Toyota skews towards reliability at the expense of efficiency. For example has not released a fleet engine which makes over 100 hp/liter which skew towards reliability. BMW has been doing it 100hp+/Liter since 2007 (I don't consider M-engines a "Fleet engine", but the S54 (Maybe S52) back in the late 1999's was making over 100 hp/liter) The 100 hp/liter threshold raises all sorts of issues around heat management and efficiency but BMW makes it work. Case in point it the 2020 Lexus IS350 which makes 314 hp out of a 3.5 liter V6 (89 hp/liter). BMW M340 makes 382 hp out off a 3 liter I6 (127hp/liter). Both have the same hwy FE (30 mpg) but BMW edges out the Lexus in the city because of stop-start.
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Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by john_pifer
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
They are in some ways. The segment in which they operate requires them to push the envelope in terms of performance while maintaining efficiency. The trade off is long-term reliability. Toyota skews towards reliability at the expense of efficiency. For example has not released a fleet engine which makes over 100 hp/liter which skew towards reliability. BMW has been doing it 100hp+/Liter since 2007 (I don't consider M-engines a "Fleet engine", but the S54 (Maybe S52) back in the late 1999's was making over 100 hp/liter) The 100 hp/liter threshold raises all sorts of issues around heat management and efficiency but BMW makes it work. Case in point it the 2020 Lexus IS350 which makes 314 hp out of a 3.5 liter V6 (89 hp/liter). BMW M340 makes 382 hp out off a 3 liter I6 (127hp/liter). Both have the same hwy FE (30 mpg) but BMW edges out the Lexus in the city because of stop-start.
We'll see how Toyota does as they slowly transition to turbocharging.
Rumor has it that the new Tundra will have a version of the 3.4 TT V6 that has been in the Lexus LS500 since 2018.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
They are in some ways. The segment in which they operate requires them to push the envelope in terms of performance while maintaining efficiency. The trade off is long-term reliability. Toyota skews towards reliability at the expense of efficiency. For example has not released a fleet engine which makes over 100 hp/liter which skew towards reliability. BMW has been doing it 100hp+/Liter since 2007 (I don't consider M-engines a "Fleet engine", but the S54 (Maybe S52) back in the late 1999's was making over 100 hp/liter) The 100 hp/liter threshold raises all sorts of issues around heat management and efficiency but BMW makes it work. Case in point it the 2020 Lexus IS350 which makes 314 hp out of a 3.5 liter V6 (89 hp/liter). BMW M340 makes 382 hp out off a 3 liter I6 (127hp/liter). Both have the same hwy FE (30 mpg) but BMW edges out the Lexus in the city because of stop-start.
We'll see how Toyota does as they slowly transition to turbocharging.
Rumor has it that the new Tundra will have a version of the 3.4 TT V6 that has been in the Lexus LS500 since 2018.
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
On the surface it appears so, but it makes sense from a $$ perspective. Toyota would loose their shirt designing an I6 shoe-horned into a new two-seater platform which they could sell in the near-luxury market. The BMW Z4 and Supra would never have been built without the sharing of development costs.
Forget B58. Toyota is buying 4cyl diesels for quite some time. Their venture into European diesel market was equal to armageddon.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
^ Strange and ironic, indeed.
On the surface it appears so, but it makes sense from a $$ perspective. Toyota would loose their shirt designing an I6 shoe-horned into a new two-seater platform which they could sell in the near-luxury market. The BMW Z4 and Supra would never have been built without the sharing of development costs.
Forget B58. Toyota is buying 4cyl diesels for quite some time. Their venture into European diesel market was equal to armageddon.
Originally Posted by john_pifer
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by john_pifer
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
They are in some ways. The segment in which they operate requires them to push the envelope in terms of performance while maintaining efficiency. The trade off is long-term reliability. Toyota skews towards reliability at the expense of efficiency. For example has not released a fleet engine which makes over 100 hp/liter which skew towards reliability. BMW has been doing it 100hp+/Liter since 2007 (I don't consider M-engines a "Fleet engine", but the S54 (Maybe S52) back in the late 1999's was making over 100 hp/liter) The 100 hp/liter threshold raises all sorts of issues around heat management and efficiency but BMW makes it work. Case in point it the 2020 Lexus IS350 which makes 314 hp out of a 3.5 liter V6 (89 hp/liter). BMW M340 makes 382 hp out off a 3 liter I6 (127hp/liter). Both have the same hwy FE (30 mpg) but BMW edges out the Lexus in the city because of stop-start.
We'll see how Toyota does as they slowly transition to turbocharging.
Rumor has it that the new Tundra will have a version of the 3.4 TT V6 that has been in the Lexus LS500 since 2018.
Their 2.0T is mediocre at best. Reason is that they do not want to push engine where reliability is going to suffer.
Expect same from V6 TT.
Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by john_pifer
I have not...but I know enough about BMWs to know that BMWs, as a brand, tend to be more complex, less reliable, overall, and more expensive to own and maintain, than Toyotas.
You deny this?
Believe me, I don't hate them. In fact, I admire them. They look great. And, as a sportbike and dirt bike rider and all-around car and motorsports enthusiast, I respect the focus that BMW, as a company, places on performance and making their cars fun to drive. I do think that they're over-engineered in many respects (a trait shared with other European marques).
In fact, I might like to own one some day. But, if I did, I'd go into the proposition with the knowledge that it would be a trade-off. I'd have a car that looked great and was a lot of fun to drive, but I'd be accepting the fact that I'd be spending a lot more time and money on maintenance than I have on my Tacoma or WRX.
They are in some ways. The segment in which they operate requires them to push the envelope in terms of performance while maintaining efficiency. The trade off is long-term reliability. Toyota skews towards reliability at the expense of efficiency. For example has not released a fleet engine which makes over 100 hp/liter which skew towards reliability. BMW has been doing it 100hp+/Liter since 2007 (I don't consider M-engines a "Fleet engine", but the S54 (Maybe S52) back in the late 1999's was making over 100 hp/liter) The 100 hp/liter threshold raises all sorts of issues around heat management and efficiency but BMW makes it work. Case in point it the 2020 Lexus IS350 which makes 314 hp out of a 3.5 liter V6 (89 hp/liter). BMW M340 makes 382 hp out off a 3 liter I6 (127hp/liter). Both have the same hwy FE (30 mpg) but BMW edges out the Lexus in the city because of stop-start.
We'll see how Toyota does as they slowly transition to turbocharging.
Rumor has it that the new Tundra will have a version of the 3.4 TT V6 that has been in the Lexus LS500 since 2018.
Their 2.0T is mediocre at best. Reason is that they do not want to push engine where reliability is going to suffer.
Expect same from V6 TT.
Oh hey, data. J.D. Power & Associates' 2020 U.S. surveys.
On the Vehicle Dependability Study, BMW is not far behind Toyota near the top.
On the Initial Quality Survey, the two brands are mid-pack within 1 point of each other.
On the Vehicle Dependability Study, BMW is not far behind Toyota near the top.
On the Initial Quality Survey, the two brands are mid-pack within 1 point of each other.
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Oh hey, data. J.D. Power & Associates' 2020 U.S. surveys.
On the Vehicle Dependability Study, BMW is not far behind Toyota near the top.
On the Initial Quality Survey, the two brands are mid-pack within 1 point of each other.
It still wouldn't convince me to choose an M3 over a four cylinder Camry. I prefer peace of mind.
Oh hey, data. J.D. Power & Associates' 2020 U.S. surveys.
On the Vehicle Dependability Study, BMW is not far behind Toyota near the top.
On the Initial Quality Survey, the two brands are mid-pack within 1 point of each other.
It still wouldn't convince me to choose an M3 over a four cylinder Camry. I prefer peace of mind.
