newbie confused

[haley10]

You guys slam oils for no Moly, but like Amsoil. An Amsoil rep said that 50ppm of Moly does no good, but just helps the energy conserving status.

Is it not possible that companies with no Moly don't use something proprietary that doesn't show up in uoa/voa.???

M1 is getting beat up for the high iron.

Just like the manufacturer's spec. sheets, I'm thinking oil analysis doesn't tell a lot either.

I wish I knew more.

 

[SteveD2]

Do you think the amsoil rep is gioing to tell you that its a bad thing their oil doesn't have moly?

 

[Dan4510]

Delvac 1 is an acknowledged first rate oil and does not use moly in its formulation. The goal is to minimize wear and there are multiple ways to do it, not just one way.

Dan

 

[haley10]

Yeah, I'm believing that Moly isn't all that expensive now, so they could dump it in there by the boat loads. Maybe it isn't the ultimate answer.

I'm not sure voa's tell us a lot about quality.

 

[haley10]

ZMOZ, I think Amsoil is so expensive anyway that they don't rely on Moly as a concious choice.

I was just saying that the rep on this forum seemed to doubt that levels in normal oils would actually coat or benefit engine parts.

I just wonder if it really does?

 

[TooSlick]

Amsoil and Delvac 1 both use borate esters as a supplimental antiwear additive and/or friction modifier. This accomplishes the same thing as adding a small amount of MoDTC. There are also other types of organic esters in Amsoil that don't register on a spectrographic analysis ...

I believe the main reason why Mobil 1 uses both boron and moly is to compensate for the low level of ZDDP in the formulation. Amsoil uses 25%-50% more ZDDP in their various oils, so moly isn't necessary or even perhaps beneficial.

From what I've read in SAE papers, borates are more effective than MoDTC in diesel engines. I suspect the ExxonMobil guys have the same reading list I do

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by TooSlick:


I believe the main reason why Mobil 1 uses both boron and moly is to compensate for the low level of ZDDP in the formulation. Amsoil uses 25%-50% more ZDDP in their various oils, so moly isn't necessary or even perhaps beneficial.

---

What scares me now though is the fact that Amsoil has reduced their levels of ZDDP quite drastically in their recent formulation of ASL and ATM. Have they added anything else to compensate for this loss though? (such as more boron perhaps?)

 

[buster]

I agree with Patman, I like the fact Amsoil has more ZDDP in it. I don't want Amsoil to be like every other off the shelf oil. I also agree though with what Tooslick said and that is the esters Amsoil uses are effective as it's clearly one of the best performing oils out there. Delvac 1 has no moly and yet it is very highly regarded.

If you look at most if not all high end performance oils, like Synrgn and RL they all have a very generous amount of Moly. So it seems Moly is only really effective maybe in very high doses. It doesn't appear to be the panancea though.

Amsoil 0w-30 still has quite a bit of ZDDP.

Molekule has stated though that ZDDP is old and cheap and there are other ways to get as good wear.

[ January 06, 2004, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

People get all wrapped up in formulation chemistry that they don't understand anyway....

You can't tell anything from a VOA that you won't find on a spec sheet for free, except the absolute levels of antiwear and detergent additives. You can only tell a very limited amount about physical/chemical properties from standardized bench tests. You can tell a lot by oil testing various oils in the same engine, under the same conditions - and with the same driver.

I should add that there really are NO secret ingredients when it comes to basestocks and/or additives. ExxonMobil and Chevron combined have about 70% of the world wide PAO market, and everyone buys additives from the usual suspects like Lubrizol, Ethyl, Infinium and Oronite/Chevron. Basically, you can get a very good idea of the quality of oil you are buying simply by the cost. The price of admission to get a world class synthetic, regardless of who makes the stuff is $6.00-$10.00 per quart.


The bottom of that range would be oils like Delvac 1, the Synergyn 3w-30, Royal Purple and the Amsoil 5w-30/10w-30/10w-40. The top of that range would be oils like the Synergyn 0w-20, the Amsoil S2000/S3000, the better "Euro" synlubes and some of the Redline formulations.

The Mobil 1, 0w-20/10w-30/15w-50 and the GC, 0w-30 are probably the best oils you can buy for < $5.00/qt, if that's the most you want to spend. I also like some of the 5w-40, GP III oils like the Petro Canada Duron and Delo 400 ....The 5w-40 Valvoline "synpower" seems to be one of the better GP III, ACEA "A3/B3" formulations.

TS

 

[buster]

Can't argue with that. One thing that stands out is that we don't really know what else in some of these oils, such as the % of esters Amsoil or Mobil are using. Look at GC, it's additive package looks rather simplistic yet it shows better results then Mobil 1. There could be much more to this oil then what we know. Same with Amsoil ASL/ATM. They show outstanding wear and don't contain any moly. With the blenders like Amsoil, they are known to use only the best of the best additives out there so cost is definitely an indicator of a great oil.

 

[TooSlick]

You wouldn't know what to make of the information if I told you what was in the basestock anyway, unless you had a Phd in organic chemistry ...

I've got a graduate degree in Mechanical Engineering from Georgia Tech; twenty years of experience with polymer based materials, and I haven't got a clue about basestock blends ...

 

[buster]

quote:

---

You wouldn't know what to make of the information if I told you what was in the basestock anyway, unless you had a Phd in organic chemistry ...

---

Your absolutely right.

My wife might, she is a pre-med major. She had Organic 1@2 and advanced orgo. Now whether or not she remeber this stuff I have no idea.

You engineers have got me thinking of going back to school. I hated economics but had to graduate. I'd have to go back and re-take a lot of math over...like starting at Calc 1 and working up from there. I'm pretty weak with math right now.

[ January 06, 2004, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

---

Originally posted by haley10:
-*-*-*
Just like the manufacturer's spec. sheets, I'm thinking oil analysis doesn't tell a lot either.

I wish I knew more.

---

I wish I knew more too... just relax.
Don't worry. Any name brand oil OTC you find in the local autoparts store will serve you well, you don't have to spend any more money on UOA's.
Your car will still make it too 200-300K with a store bought oil with no testing.
UOA's:
They are not going to tell everything some of the members here would like them to... but they are useful... no unless you are doing EXTENDED drains or are trying to find an engine problem... they probably won't help the average "JOE".

If you are trying to figure out if you should do one, then Yes, maybe on a yearly basis, before you do your other maintenance, otherwise don't worry.
Pick and oil and an idea that appeals to you and stick with it. Some oil will get you more miles than another, but unless you plan on keeping the car over 300K+ then just pick one... Then once and awhile (maybe every 20-30K do a flush).

IMO testing the oil is for more the FLEETS than the individual... they can benefit...