New VW-VW507/509 oil

[ARCOgraphite]

What was your drama with running 508? What car was this?

Read post #18 and #19. Engine mechanical knocking when hot 2019 Jetta S 6M lease vehicle. Happened on FF and Motul. Added a litre of M1 0W40 FS after a liter of the Motul 508 burned off, then oil burning stopped and engine didnt have engine noise for over 6K miles when the lease vehicle was returned. High rpm high load performance improved also. That points to inadequate HTHS/MOFT in any reasonable persons book.
-Ken

 

[NuttCase]

Read post #18 and #19. Engine mechanical knocking when hot 2019 Jetta S 6M lease vehicle. Happened on FF and Motul. Added a litre of M1 0W40 FS after a liter of the Motul 508 burned off, then oil burning stopped and engine didnt have engine noise for over 6K miles when the lease vehicle was returned. High rpm high load performance improved also. That points to inadequate HTHS/MOFT in any reasonable persons book.

I wonder what the HTHS was of your 4:1 cocktail.

 

[TiGeo]

Read post #18 and #19. Engine mechanical knocking when hot 2019 Jetta S 6M lease vehicle. Happened on FF and Motul. Added a litre of M1 0W40 FS after a liter of the Motul 508 burned off, then oil burning stopped and engine didnt have engine noise for over 6K miles when the lease vehicle was returned. High rpm high load performance improved also. That points to inadequate HTHS/MOFT in any reasonable persons book.
-Ken

Plenty of powered-out GTIs at >300hp on 508 with no drama at all.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I wonder what the HTHS was of your 4:1 cocktail.

Just enough extra to be adequate on that example, I guess. I just used the 0W40 as it as in the stash and I was low on oil.

As thin as you can get with out trouble is the goal for good power.

I am not a "Thickie", rather, I am an adequate-y **
__________________________________
** just ask my old H.S. GF's

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Plenty of powered-out GTIs at >300hp on 508 with no drama at all.

I see a lot of hot cars in your sig, Ti but unless you DD it ....

I'm just relating what I had to do with my car, that's all. And if I had to do it with mine I sure others could have similar issues.
I see a lot of folks saying "no power over 4 grand" on the 211. True with the FF but not true with a bit of beef in the sump.

Maybe I should stick to building good ole American Iron and stay away form Sauer Kraut buzz bombs
Been doing this for 50 years.

 

[TiGeo]

I see a lot of hot cars in your sig, Ti but unless you DD it ....

I'm just relating what I had to do with my car, that's all. And if I had to do it with mine I sure others could have similar issues.
I see a lot of folks saying "no power over 4 grand" on the 211. True with the FF but not true with a bit of beef in the sump.

Maybe I should stick to building good ole American Iron and stay away form Sauer Kraut buzz bombs
Been doing this for 50 years.

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Plenty of daily'd GTIs with that 508....I've never heard of it before this. I have buddy that Autocrosses his with 508 in there and he's and Audi Tech. Those good ol' American V8s for sure don't have a lot of oil drama! My 289 in my '67 Cougar ran on dad's fave QS 10W30.

 

[weasley]

This was on my car with my professional experience. Just because you don't like it, don't try to discredit my input.

What does my ecosport have to do with this discussion?

I am discussing HTHS, moft and a particular engine in a particular car THAT I LEASED and drove for two years..

The reported HTHS of 2.5 is LOW - and that is before any fuel dilution.

The 508 doesn't exist by itself in the ether? What are you talking about?

From this distance, it looks like a Japaneses ILSAC 0W20 to me:

MOTUL specific 508 00 / 509 00

STANDARDS ACEA A1 / B1 APPROVALS VW 508 00 – 509 00 PORSCHE C20

Color Visual Green
Viscosity grade SAE J 300 0W-20
Density at 20°C (68°F) ASTM D1298 0.833
Viscosity at 40°C (104°F) ASTM D445 38.5 mm2/s
Viscosity at 100°C (212°F) ASTM D445 7.8 mm2/s
Viscosity HTHS at 150°C (302°F) ASTM D4741 2.5 mPa.s
Viscosity Index ASTM D2270 179
Pour point ASTM D97 -52°C / -62°F
Flash point ASTM D92 222°C / 432°F
Sulfated ash ASTM D874 0.79% weight
TBN ASTM D2896 8.3 mg KOH/g

That HTHS value is beneath all of the specs claimed (508 00, 509 00, C20 and A1/B1). If that's from a data sheet it's either a typo or they can't hold those specs.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

That HTHS value is beneath all of the specs claimed (508 00, 509 00, C20 and A1/B1). If that's from a data sheet it's either a typo or they can't hold those specs.

I saw that I looked at the TDS again and it was 2.5 mPa.s but dated 07/2018
It must be a typo, OTW it would not have VAG approval.

Motul TDS link: https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/specific_508_00_509_00_0w-20_en_fr_motul.pdf

Here is current liquiMoly top Tec Porsche6200 c20 with the correct 2.6 mPa.s HTHS min:

If the 508 is substantially different than a quality ILSAC resource conserving 0W20 Id like to know in what way.
Other than tracer dye I bet M1 0W20 or Edeg gold bottle would do just fine at a large cost savings.
But IME, it is an inadequate spec for use with high power density engine that will get run hard.

Approvals
ACEA C5 • Porsche C20 • VW 508 00 • VW 509 00
Technical data
SAE Viscosity 0W-20
SAE J300
Density at 59 °F 0,845 g/cm³
DIN 51757
Viscosity at 104 °F 40 mm²/s
ASTM D 7042-04
Viscosity at 212°F 8,1 mm²/s
ASTM D 7042-04
Viscosity at -40 °F (MRV) < 60000 mPas
ASTM D 4684
Viscosity at -31 °F (CCS) ≤ 6200 mPas
ASTM D 5293
Viscosity index 180
DIN ISO 2909
HTHS at 302 °F ≥ 2,6 mPas
ASTM D 5481
Pour point -49 °F
DIN ISO 3016
Evaporation loss (Noack) 10,5 %
CEC-L-40-A-93
Total base number 9,2 mg KOH/g
DIN ISO 3771
Flash point 428 °F
DIN ISO 2592
Sulfate ash ≤ 0,8 %
DIN 5

 

[NuttCase]

There is a more recent data sheet for the Motul Specific dated April 2020. Surprise - the HTHS is 2.6 ! There are quite a few changes in other values too, such that it almost looks like a different formulation e.g. TBN higher by 1.3 and pour point higher by 7C. It still states alignment with ACEA A1/B1 which has been an obsolete specification since 2016, when the C5 specification was released with sulphated ash limit of
You can find the 2020 data sheet here - scroll down to the PDFs
Motul 508509 data sheet

Edit : I found a December 2020 sheet here - it correctly references ACEA C5, all other values look the same
https://azupim01.motul.com/media/motulData/DO/base/spec_508_00_0w20_de_en_fr_motul_20201210.pdf

 

[TiGeo]

Are folks saying that a HTHS of 2.6 isn't enough for a 1.4L economy car?

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Are folks saying that a HTHS of 2.6 isn't enough for a 1.4L economy car?

I guess I am "folks" I would counter that "economy car" doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. Its a highly stressed engine in a 3000 lb compact sedan. What I am relating is that MY specific engine in my 2019 wanted a higher HTHS and KV for it to NOT make excessive engine noise and for it to produce good high RPM torque. Your engine may vary - or maybe not. Just laying out my personal owner experience - not bench racing or speculating.

Usually engines do not respond as well as mine did with the addition of a litre of 0W40 to the Motul. I also wonder if I got the "thinner" Motul formulation. It was definitely much nosier than the FF and the engine ate a litre in a week. I drove off the lot after the OC - not even warmed up and said, Oh, dang! this is not good - clatter clatter clatter. But I had a 6 speed manual, so I unload the rods and pistons when I lift to shift. - Ken

 

[TiGeo]

I guess I am "folks" I would counter that "economy car" doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. Its a highly stressed engine in a 3000 lb compact sedan. What I am relating is that MY specific engine in my 2019 wanted a higher HTHS and KV for it to NOT make excessive engine noise and for it to produce good high RPM torque. Your engine may vary - or maybe not. Just laying out my personal owner experience - not bench racing or speculating.

Usually engines do not respond as well as mine did with the addition of a litre of 0W40 to the Motul. I also wonder if I got the "thinner" Motul formulation. It was definitely much nosier than the FF and the engine ate a litre in a week. I drove off the lot after the OC - not even warmed up and said, Oh, dang! this is not good - clatter clatter clatter. But I had a 6 speed manual, so I unload the rods and pistons when I lift to shift. - Ken

Understood - no idea. I've not heard much on this beyond here w/r to noisy 1.4s in the Jetta or Sportwagen.