New short block - does this oil seem strange?

[curls]

As you might have read in my other thread, I had a new short block put in my Acura TSX, under warranty.

On the invoice, the tech entered the following stuff (aside from new short block, Honda MTF, and misc. nuts and bolts):

QTY // DESCRIPTION
4 // 5W30 M.OIL
1 // ULTRA OIL TREATMENT
2 // 10W30 OIL

Would this likely mean that they used approx 5.x Litres of oil (a blend between Honda OEM 5W30 and 10W30), along with some kind of Honda/Acura-recommended "Ultra Oil Treatment" for break-in, maybe to simulate what a regular, brand-new Honda/Acura has in it for break-in oil?

I plan on dumping this shortly (4K kms) in favour of some XD-3 0W30 and a Napa Gold filter, but I wanted to get your opinions on what exactly Honda/Acura was possibly getting at with the additives and blends of oil they put in the mostly-new engine?

 

[oilboy123]

I hope the Ultra Oil Treatment was not 1qt too!

I would ask the Service Advisor.

 

[curls]

quote:

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Originally posted by oilboy123:
I hope the Ultra Oil Treatment was not 1qt too!

I would ask the Service Advisor.

---

The service advisors at my dealership leave a LOT to be desired. Not tooting my own horn or anything, but I know a LOT more about the TSX than they do (then again I spend hours online, LOL).

Last time I had a question I simply asked the SA to get the tech who worked on my car, and then asked the tech. I might do the same this time although I don't really care now that I'm dumping this oil anyhow.

The oil level was 100% fine when I got it back from getting the new shortblock so I doubt it was 1L of treatment to go along with 5 liters of oil. LOL.

 

[Eddie]

Your plan on "dumping" the oil at ~4km. Is that what Honda/Acura recomend or are you trying to out guess the factory recomendations?

 

[curls]

They said "come back at 97,000km" (5,000km from the time the short block was replaced), but I'm due for the 96,000km service anyhow. It was just a tech's recommendation and I got no real indication from him that this was coming down from an engineer at Acura, at all.

 

[LarryL]

Mechanics, service advisors, and service managers may not be the best place to go for information on engine oil. What they think they know is sometimes wrong. I had a service manager tell me, they put 10w-30 in the cars, Southern Calfornia, instead of 5w-30 because they want a thicker oil for hot freeway driving conditions, 5w-30 was just way to thin for a hot engine with all the smog controls and a/c, he says. There might be just a thin chance that the 10w-30 might be just a tiny bit better in warm weather, but that's a streatch. He claimed the 10w-30 was twice as thick as 5w-30 and that's just wrong. They also have an oil additive, that only dealers sell, because he says, is too powerful to be used by someone without proper training. That might also be wrong. They do sell Mobil 1 and still recommend 3k oil changes, just like with conventional oil. He said it does not matter if you use synthetic, that oil gets dirty, just the same and has to be changed. He also recommends the oil additive with Mobil 1, because it will keep the synthetic oil from leaking out of the engine. Some of his comments are motivated by $$$ and the rest from lack of knowledge and there are some comments he makes that are correct. You have to pick, which one is which.

 

[JohnBrowning]

You are fine dumping the oil at 4K KMS!!! Personely I would have dumped it much sooner. Eddie, Just so you know everything the OEM recomends is not always to serve the customers needs or interest.

It just so happens that I followed MotuneUSA's recomended break-in procedure with my 2003 Camry. No it basicly flys in the face of everything the most OEM's barring Dodge recomend for break-in. I basicly alternated between driveing it like I stole it and driveing it normaly for the first 58 miles. This is the distance from the dealership to my house.I changed the oil as soon as I got home. I then changed the oil progessively about 3-5 times dureing the first 1500 miles.

I am now just under 40,000 miles and my car still does not burn/consume any oil between my 6 month 7500 mile OCI. I also have used 0W30,15W40,10W40,0W40,5W30 and 5W40. Never mind that 5W30 is the only recomended viscosity with a waiver for 10W30 in a pinch.

To add insult to injury my UOA's have all been just fine.

 

[another Todd]

On my last new car, I ran the **** out of it on the way home from the dealership. Then changed the oil immediately. Unbelievable how the oil looked. Looked like ultra fine glitter! Changed it several times before 4000 miles. Now with 10,000 miles it purrs like a kitten and oil stays clean. Amsoil 5-30. Anybody ever check out Motoman? I believe! Used his methods several times now. I have had great results. Your mileage may vary! http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

[XS650]

I've used a much milder version of Motoman's break in procedure for years and always had good results.

If you talk to a few people who have been in the engine development and testing business at the engine manufacturers, you will find out that agressive break-ins are old news.

I think the break-in sequence in owners manual is largely there because the average car owner is an ignoranus that can't tell the difference between an intelligent agressive break-in (a la Motorman's method) and just plain flogging an engine.

 

[Big Jim]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
You are fine dumping the oil at 4K KMS!!! Personely I would have dumped it much sooner. Eddie, Just so you know everything the OEM recomends is not always to serve the customers needs or interest.

It just so happens that I followed MotuneUSA's recomended break-in procedure with my 2003 Camry. No it basicly flys in the face of everything the most OEM's barring Dodge recomend for break-in. I basicly alternated between driveing it like I stole it and driveing it normaly for the first 58 miles. This is the distance from the dealership to my house.I changed the oil as soon as I got home. I then changed the oil progessively about 3-5 times dureing the first 1500 miles.

I am now just under 40,000 miles and my car still does not burn/consume any oil between my 6 month 7500 mile OCI. I also have used 0W30,15W40,10W40,0W40,5W30 and 5W40. Never mind that 5W30 is the only recomended viscosity with a waiver for 10W30 in a pinch.

To add insult to injury my UOA's have all been just fine.

---

I'm an agressive driver. I still avoid agressive driving for about 1000 miles then I get agressive.

I don't change oil until 3000 miles. I have had about the same results as you. At 216,000 miles I still do not burn any oil between oil changes.

Your agressive oil chage behavior at the beginning is totally unnecessary.

Just another opinion.

 

[curls]

For what its worth, I used the MotoMan method too. I've always been a believer.

I didn't get a chance to use it until there was about 20 miles (30km) on the new engine, though, as my wife was with me when I picked up the car after its heart transplant. I then told her I was going to the store to get some washer fluid. And then the MotoMan break-in was used.

I checked the oil today, and don't see any glitter, although the color of the oil is medium-brown. It stayed very light amber for about 2800km and just recently has been darkening a bit.

 

[another Todd]

Curls, I didn't see any glitter until I drained it. Its the microscopic metal particals that come off with motomans procedure. Motoman also recommends changing the oil within the first 20 miles I believe, right after the "break in procedure".

 

[Eddie]

JohnBrowning: I realize what you said about OEM suggestions can be true. My point is that the "tech" who made the witches brew may be dead wrong. You can very rarely go wrong following the manufactures recomendations but, you surly can following a self appointed expert.

 

[LarryL]

Are you considering all the drivers that used the gentle method and have had good results, drivers that keep their car a long time and don't have oil related problems?

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by LarryL:
Are you considering all the drivers that used the gentle method and have had good results, drivers that keep their car a long time and don't have oil related problems?

---

Excellent point. There is probably a 1,000 of these "gentle break-in", "change oil when recommended" owners for every 1 of the "Motoman method" owners. Truth is, for the majority of new cars, most of the initial seating of the rings takes place within a minute or two of initial startup. Additionally, most of the other wearing surface are micro polished and cleaned of all debris. See if you can get a tour of one of the better manufacturer's engine assembly plants if you're still not a believer.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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I think the break-in sequence in owners manual is largely there because the average car owner is an ignoranus that can't tell the difference between an intelligent agressive break-in (a la Motorman's method) and just plain flogging an engine.

---

Exactly. You can't get the general public to get out of their own way without visual aids and "no choice" gates (even with these assist mechanisms ..they fail). How can you expect them to complete a task like breakin with any consistancy without 1) at least killing a few of them, and, 2) destroying a few engines?? This had to be taken out of their hands.

I too use a milder version of that technique. Actually it was right out of the Perfect Circle Piston Ring "Dr. of Motors" clinic (probably published circa 1968

). They didn't "beat" a freshly rebuilt engine, just cycled it through the 30-60mph on a heavy throttle/closed throttle coast situation for a number of cycles. I usually do that type of thing for about 10 miles ..or more if I've got the time and I can get the traffic gaps. 3rd gear in a 5 speed works fine. You can usually get pretty far up the rpm band without going too far over the speed limit.

[ June 04, 2006, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

 

[Eddie]

I also use an fairly mild passive/agressive breakin technique somewhat like the Chrysler company suggests. Most of my vehicles are sold with over 150,000 miles without needing to add oil during a 5,000 mile oci. What more can I say as it works for me. Too many recomend driving it like you stole it. I wonder what they have to say if they kept the car for 150,000 miles like I do??

 

[another Todd]

Gary Allen, what you describe is generally all I could do to breakin that motor. Motomans method is not exactly practicle in a vehicle with an auto trans that can exceed the legal speed limit in second gear! So I just accelerate then decelerate with the trans locked in second, run it up to redline then coast back to idle. Then drove it home and changed the oil.

 

[curls]

quote:

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Originally posted by JHZR2:
dealers often round up numbers, or misquote on their invoices for stuff like this. Its definitely worth your while to figure out why all these different items were used.

What is the sump size of that engine? Cant be as many quarts as they charged you for. Maybe ough they just dumped oil through the engine first to 'clean' it or something... only they know for sure.

Why would an acura engine fail at such a young age? I dont think I read the thread that explained that part of it...

JMH

---

Sump size w/ filter is 4.2 Litres.

Why the engine failed, only the engineers at Acura who (probably) received the bad block after it was removed, would know. They tried a lot of stuff, and finally changing out the shortblock w/ a completely new one (pistons, rings, crank, bearings, block, etc...) was the only thing that worked. Since my VIN# is extremely low (under 00040), and I've heard of two others w/ low VIN's in Canada having very similar oil consumption problems, all I can think of is that maybe, possibly, the early production run K24A2 engines was faulty in the bore (oval?).

Either way, a new block completely fixed the problem, so it had to be something in the block itself. Since before trying this, they installed all new rings and re-honed the cylinder walls, and changed all parts in the head (guides and seals), and put a new master gasket kit in... and nothing helped... it makes me believe the bore was foobar'd.

 

[JHZR2]

4.2 and they claimed 7?

More than a rounding error.

Maybe they had to pre-prime the oil pump or something... Or maybe they just flowed oil through first for the sake of cleaning it all out...

Something is awry.

Glad all is well now!

JMH