New Motorcraft Oil Meeting New Ford Specification

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CarbonSteel

CarbonSteel

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I was at my local WM this morning and saw the new MC oil for Powerstrokes meeting the new WSS-M2C171-F1 specification sitting on the shelf. Based upon what I see on the bottle "Contains More Than 1000PPM Phosphorus For Better Wear Protection", it makes me wonder if any HDEO with >1000PPM meets their specification; i.e. is that all that is required. I realize that is a broad statement, but...
 
I think Ford also wants the oil to be 40-weight. I find it kind of ironic that Ford requires the low-P 5w50 oil for the high performance Mustang V8's and released their own spec to make people obsess about it. Now they have their own spec for a high-P oil to make their diesel live. Where is the logic of specifying an oil that decreases wear protection for a $10,000 engine in order to protect a $500 catalytic converter? ZDDP forever!
 
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Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Where is the logic of specifying an oil that decreases wear protection for a $10,000 engine in order to protect a $500 catalytic converter? ZDDP forever!
The fact that they are on the hook a lot longer for that $500 converter than they are that $10,000 engine. Plus, that $10,000 engine is a lot more likely to outlast the warranty period .. or a few hundred thousand miles than the $500 catalyst.
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Where is the logic of specifying an oil that decreases wear protection for a $10,000 engine in order to protect a $500 catalytic converter? ZDDP forever!
Finally someone understands it! In the Ecodiesel world all these people were so fixated on C3 type oil Low P and Z ; when I posted about running Rotella they said I was nuts. Then the spec was changed to Rotella T6!
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Where is the logic of specifying an oil that decreases wear protection for a $10,000 engine in order to protect a $500 catalytic converter? ZDDP forever!
The fact that they are on the hook a lot longer for that $500 converter than they are that $10,000 engine. Plus, that $10,000 engine is a lot more likely to outlast the warranty period .. or a few hundred thousand miles than the $500 catalyst.
As an OEM, I would replace 20 $500 catalytic converters in preference to replacing 1 $10,000 engine. And the odds of having to replace that many cats in 150,000 miles is ZERO.
 
Here's how the OEM's view oil vs. emissions vs. engine life. The OEM's have to take a 5 year old vehicle with around 150k miles on it, and re test the emissions for EPA. So it needs to meet the same tolerance for HC, CO, NOx, PM etc. So your catalyst needs to be maintained. On the other end they need the engine to last 150k miles not 300k miles. So the low P/Z oils will have less deposits in the catalyst and will have 100+ ppm of iron every service interval, the manufactures know this. Still the engine should be able to last 150k, and the catalyst too. Its a balancing act between engine life vs. emissions life. However, not many catalysts are $500, OEM catalysts for a 3/4 ton truck Diesel engine are probably close to $2500 and the engine $20,000. 10 years ago working as a mechanic, I was fixing a rash of P0420 codes on Rav4's each needed a new catalyst, was charged out at $894.00 to warranty.
 
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" Ford also announced that API FA-4 oils should not be used in their diesel vehicles at this time. AP I CK -4 oils that meet the new Ford Material Engineering Specification WSS-M2C171-F1 may be used. In addition, oils labeled A PI C J-4 may also continue to be used. The new Ford specification includes a minimum 0.10% phosphorus limit and additive companies/marketers must demonstrate that new technologies are suitable for their medium-duty diesel engines. This can be done via proven field performance or via a new Ford 6.7L valve train wear test that Ford expects to be available by end of 1 Q 20 17. The first Ford approval list will be available online in December. Marketers are now working to get their official OEM approvals in place, to update their labels and marketing literature and to educate end users on the value of these oils. This is proving to be quite a challenge due to complex approval procedures, along with the sheer number of approvals, just before first licensing of PC-11" From Infineum's website... http://www.infineuminsight.com/trends/pc-11/latest-pc-11-news
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
I was at my local WM this morning and saw the new MC oil for Powerstrokes meeting the new WSS-M2C171-F1 specification sitting on the shelf. Based upon what I see on the bottle "Contains More Than 1000PPM Phosphorus For Better Wear Protection", it makes me wonder if any HDEO with >1000PPM meets their specification; i.e. is that all that is required. I realize that is a broad statement, but...
That explains Ford's non-acceptance of CK4(SN)of 800 ppm Phos and below, in Ford diesels like 6.7L .
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
$10,000 engine
That's probably low for a diesel engine or a Mustang engine from Ford tbph
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
I think Ford also wants the oil to be 40-weight. I find it kind of ironic that Ford requires the low-P 5w50 oil for the high performance Mustang V8's and released their own spec to make people obsess about it. Now they have their own spec for a high-P oil to make their diesel live. Where is the logic of specifying an oil that decreases wear protection for a $10,000 engine in order to protect a $500 catalytic converter? ZDDP forever!
Yes, it does also have to be an xW-40 oil (sorry, I left that out), which seems so strange considering they recommend xW-30 as "the oil" for a 6.7L PSD. I ran xW-30 once, but did not care for it and I have 11 OCIs in the stash so I am good until Ford figures it out or the majors have CK-4 with the Ford spec. As an aside, for the cost of a 6.7L, my guess is that it is closer to $20,000 (depending on whether or not anything can be salvaged from the old engine.
 
Originally Posted By: zeng
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
I was at my local WM this morning and saw the new MC oil for Powerstrokes meeting the new WSS-M2C171-F1 specification sitting on the shelf. Based upon what I see on the bottle "Contains More Than 1000PPM Phosphorus For Better Wear Protection", it makes me wonder if any HDEO with >1000PPM meets their specification; i.e. is that all that is required. I realize that is a broad statement, but...
That explains Ford's non-acceptance of CK4(SN)of 800 ppm Phos and below, in Ford diesels like 6.7L .
I agree; they could have simply said that at the onset (or at least explained it more clearly).
 
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
$10,000 engine
That's probably low for a diesel engine or a Mustang engine from Ford tbph
$11,695 for a new 6.7 drop in without accessories. $64.95 for a new 5.0 longblock, they don't have pricing for a drop in. FWIW the 6.7s are a lot cheaper than the 6.4 and 6.0 drop in engines.
 
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
$11,695 for a new 6.7 drop in without accessories.
How much for the labor to install it or is that part of the price?
 
Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: bdcardinal
$11,695 for a new 6.7 drop in without accessories.
How much for the labor to install it or is that part of the price?
That is just the part. Figure 20-25 hours plus some miscellaneous parts as needed. We are $140 an hour here. I am blown away that Ford had to make the diesel oil thing so complicated for people.
 
The catalytic converter thing really doesn't apply anyway. The main reason for the CK-4 changes was to protect DEF units and DPF units. The cost for those replacements make catalytic converters look like buying stuff on sale at Dollar General. Since the vast majority of CK-4 oil are going into commercial applications, it makes sense to have oil formulations that are more emission component friendly. A DPF filter alone (just filter, not the whole DPF unit) on a heavy commercial vehicle can easily meet or exceed $3000, not counting labor or tax. And the price goes up from there on SCR units and complete DPF units. Now, that being said, I ran a load of Delvac Extreme 10w30 syn blend CK-4 in my commercial engine for a little over 20,000 miles. When I got the UOA on it, it showed 995 for phosphorus and 1189 on zinc. Hardly an earth shattering drop in ZDDP on that CK-4, and certainly in the ball park of what Ford is hollering about wanting 1000. And the wear numbers were a couple of points lower than previous CJ-4 use numbers. Fear of the unknown sure can drive folks to make wild conclusions. I would be willing to bet the Delvac Extreme 15w40 is the same way. I will be putting in another order with Schaeffer to build my stockpile up again, and I am only getting CK-4 stuff. Oh, and the Schaeffer CK-4 10w30 and 15w40 are on the latest Ford approval list for those that are concerned. The 722 and 700 synshield Schaeffer stuff on the list in both grades is their CK-4 stuff. I just checked to confirm that on their list dated 04/06/2017. Ford is NOT stuck on 40 weight oils only and certainly not denying CK-4 in either 10w30 or 15w40 varieties. Almost 3 pages in that list are 10w30 oils. https://www.fcsdchemicalsandlubricants.com/main/additionalinfo/dieseloilsWSSM2C171F1.pdf
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I just checked to confirm that on their list dated 04/06/2017. Ford is NOT stuck on 40 weight oils only and certainly not denying CK-4 in either 10w30 or 15w40 varieties. Almost 3 pages in that list are 10w30 oils.
It is not that they are "stuck" on xW-40, if memory serves xW-40 is the only way to get >1000PPM phosphorus without having the new Ford spec on the bottle. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
 
Well, then explain how 10w30 CK-4 is on the current Ford approved list? If must be that even the 10w30 CK-4 has the ZDDP they are looking for if that is their primary criteria. Not exactly sure how oil weight has anything to do with it, and how 40 weight is the only way to get to 1000+ ppm of ZDDP, since it is an additive.
 
Changed the oil in my 7.3 F250 yesterday with Motorcraft 15W40, it didnt have the newest spec, it was some older CJ-4 stock at Wal Mart, but im sure it will be fine. From here on out, Ill be using this new spec 1000 ppm zinc Motorcraft oil in my 7.3 and my Cummins, not taking any chances with CK-4.
 
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Originally Posted By: 2015_PSD
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
I just checked to confirm that on their list dated 04/06/2017. Ford is NOT stuck on 40 weight oils only and certainly not denying CK-4 in either 10w30 or 15w40 varieties. Almost 3 pages in that list are 10w30 oils.
It is not that they are "stuck" on xW-40, if memory serves xW-40 is the only way to get >1000PPM phosphorus without having the new Ford spec on the bottle. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
In ILSAC specifications, the 800 ppm max limit on Phos only applies to 20 and 30 grades. 40 and above don't have limits. A CK4 10w30 oil could have higher Phos than a CK4/SN 10w30. Are those 10w30 oils on the 3 pages of the approved list CK4 only, or CK4/SN?
 
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Are those 10w30 oils on the 3 pages of the approved list CK4 only, or CK4/SN?
I know in the case of Schaeffers 10w30 and 15w40 CK4, neither one carries the SN rating. They both list the new Ford spec. http://www.schaefferoil.com/heavy-duty-diesel-oils.html Scroll down and click on the technical data sheet for the approval list
 
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