New Member with questions

[Colorado]

I have been monitoring this site for some time. I have developed my own opininion based upon the weath of info available on this site. I do have questions though. I have done my own research by questioning various technical service reps from different companies. I have found that the Chevron-Texaco reps to be the most helpful and knowledgeable. I have also questioned the reps from Lubrizol additives. They were also very helpful. My question is: Since group II/II+ base oils are better, and require less additives for anti-oxidation and viscosity, Does the TBN number really reflect on the quality of the motor oil in question, since it may need less additives to do the job.
Also, I recently spoke to tech services at Redline. The fellow told me that with the minimum difference in wear metals found in different analysis's of used motor oils, That UOA's really dont serve a purpose for the passenger car. They only really benefit an owner of fleet vehicles who are trying to maximize their change intervals.
BY the way, the research I have done, has shown that the real way to go to maximize the cost vs. performance value, is to go with a group II/II+ oil such as Chevron/Texaco. I have also used an hour meter on my vehicle. My average speed is 35.24 MPH. I drive very short trips, with many cold starts. Based upon the research I have done, A good place to change is at 150 hours, which equals 5286 miles, so I change at 5000 miles with havoline just to be safe. I have 185,000 miles on this vehicle and its oil consumption is less than 1/2 qt. In the 5,000 miles, with Havoline 5w30. This vehicle I used for deliveries.

 

[Colorado]

Yes I understand what TBN is, but are relying on these numbers too much because of that natural ability of modern Group II,II+,III base oils to naturally anti-oxidize, therefore a less robust additive package is required. I recently seen a post on the UOA section that compared Havoline and Chevron. The additive seemed to compare to a cheaper oil like SuperTech, not because they wanted a cheaper additive package, but because these oils require less of an additive package to perform. This would cause a lower TBN, but the oils would still perform.
Are we splitting hairs with some of these oil analysis's? According to the rep at Redline, we may be.

 

[TC]

TBNs are covered by ASTM testing standard D2896, a standardized test. Although I don't know the specifics of this test, lacking other quantified testing to go by, I simply put faith in the TBN numbers in the spec sheets. Speaking of which, if you're hot for Chevron/Havoline, you're getting a good TBN anyway, according to that pesky spec sheet. Basically you're getting just what you suggest you're looking for -- primarily a Group II oil with a high TBN:

Chevron/Havoline TBN: 7.4
Valvoline: 7
Union 76: 6.2
Kendall: 6.2

[ January 16, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: TC ]

 

[Robbie Alexander]

I guess I don't understand.
Not all group II or II+ or III's are near being considered equal by me. I could not put ALL group II's in one "level" because there are may levels of the Group II for instance, and these levels will be say difference of say a 4K change and a 10K change.
Some group II's can do as well or maybe better than a group III.
Additives count a lot in "normal oils" (Dinos) and some in some Syns too.

TBN is very important, but not all oils retain it for very long, and all drop at different rates depending upon what is going on inside the engine.

I wish I could help but I don't exactly know the question! sorry!

 

[Colorado]

The point that I am raising is that I believe that it is more important to focus on a good quality base oil, because the better the base oil, the better that it will hold up, regardless of the TBN. It seems that this is not a value that we should be concerned with if you have a good quality base oil. Is there an agreement on this? And if so, do oil analysis's serve any purpose to the average passenger vehicle owner other that to find contaminants in the oil? Also since the TBN cannot effectively be used to show how good a quality base oil is holding up over time, than maybe we should not use it as a gauge for determining OCI's. This is of course that my assumption that TBN is directly related to the additive package.

[ January 16, 2004, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Colorado ]

 

[haley10]

Havoline

TBN is a measure of reserve alkylinity. Oils with higher TBN's typically may allow you to go longer between drains and still protect you engine.

Spec. sheet TBN's can't always be compared directly as some additive pakages hold up better than others.