New Honda Pilot, Toyota Highlander, or Subaru Ascent?
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gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
The FA24DIT probably incorporated a lot of lessons learned from the FA20DIT in my Forester XT (and the current WRX), so it may very well be a reliable engine; however, after having had so many initial issues with this engine I refuse to ever buy a turbo Subaru that isn't at least four years old.
The CVT doesn't bother me at all. Subaru has done an excellent job with them, especially with the high-torque CVT's in their H6 and turbo models. I'm on a few Subaru sites and haven't heard of any HTCVT issues recently. The last one I recall reading about what for a '14 Forester XT with a leaking case, resulting in replacement under warranty, IIRC. I don't go searching out problems, however, so I very well could have missed a post here or there. I only mean to say that I spend more time reading about Subarus than your average guy and nothing I read leads me to be concerned about Subaru's CVT's
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Has your wife test-driven any of the minivans on the market today? She might just get past whatever aversion (likely soccer mom stigma, right?) she has when she sits behind the wheel of one and sees how useful of an interior they really offer!
With only two kids we're perfectly fine with both of our vehicles; we've got a roof-top carrier for added space for the Forester, if we need it.
If we end up having another kid I think we will be hard-pressed not to choose a minivan. My wife was adamantly against minivans ever since we had our first kid; however, after a couple of rental vans, she's slowly changing her mind, I think. There simply isn't a comparison regarding practicality. I'm in my wife's camp in thinking that the mid-sized SUV's LOOK cooler and put out a more sophisticated vibe, but that's not enough of a reason for me.
The CVT doesn't bother me at all. Subaru has done an excellent job with them, especially with the high-torque CVT's in their H6 and turbo models. I'm on a few Subaru sites and haven't heard of any HTCVT issues recently. The last one I recall reading about what for a '14 Forester XT with a leaking case, resulting in replacement under warranty, IIRC. I don't go searching out problems, however, so I very well could have missed a post here or there. I only mean to say that I spend more time reading about Subarus than your average guy and nothing I read leads me to be concerned about Subaru's CVT's
//
Has your wife test-driven any of the minivans on the market today? She might just get past whatever aversion (likely soccer mom stigma, right?) she has when she sits behind the wheel of one and sees how useful of an interior they really offer!
With only two kids we're perfectly fine with both of our vehicles; we've got a roof-top carrier for added space for the Forester, if we need it.
If we end up having another kid I think we will be hard-pressed not to choose a minivan. My wife was adamantly against minivans ever since we had our first kid; however, after a couple of rental vans, she's slowly changing her mind, I think. There simply isn't a comparison regarding practicality. I'm in my wife's camp in thinking that the mid-sized SUV's LOOK cooler and put out a more sophisticated vibe, but that's not enough of a reason for me.
Get a 4Runner.
All modern cars have DI engines, and most have Turbos. There is nothing inherently bad or unreliable about modern turbos, but they are going to be more expensive to repair.
All are good vehicles. The Ascent has a great interior and ride ; best of the bunch. AWD is superior , Subaru CVT is fine and reliable. Not a good vehicle for towing, however.
The Toyota is going to be more reliable in general, except the transmission is kind of funky. Honda is good also, but worse than Toyota and Subaru.
For us it comes down to seating. My wife hates my Honda's seats because she is short and Honda seat cushions are longer. Subaru and Toyota have shorter cushions.
You might not get Android Auto on the Toyota infotainment system. They see kind of dated. The Honda is not too user friendly either. Subaru's is better.
What is the price difference?
All are good vehicles. The Ascent has a great interior and ride ; best of the bunch. AWD is superior , Subaru CVT is fine and reliable. Not a good vehicle for towing, however.
The Toyota is going to be more reliable in general, except the transmission is kind of funky. Honda is good also, but worse than Toyota and Subaru.
For us it comes down to seating. My wife hates my Honda's seats because she is short and Honda seat cushions are longer. Subaru and Toyota have shorter cushions.
You might not get Android Auto on the Toyota infotainment system. They see kind of dated. The Honda is not too user friendly either. Subaru's is better.
What is the price difference?
Thanks for the detailed Subie info.
I've tried every which to pitch the mini van since I love the practicality and lack a sense of shame/style. Still a no-go-won't-even-look-at-them from her.
As practical as I am, she will be driving it the majority of the time. I get not wanting to hate the vehicle you're going to be in for the next 10 years.
I've tried every which to pitch the mini van since I love the practicality and lack a sense of shame/style. Still a no-go-won't-even-look-at-them from her.
As practical as I am, she will be driving it the majority of the time. I get not wanting to hate the vehicle you're going to be in for the next 10 years.
Ascent Plus & Minuses
+ It's a Subaru (I've owned them and their are bullet proof)
+/- Subaru builds its own transmissions and they are the manufacturer with the most experience with CVT, but it's a CVT with the inherent shortcomings
+/- Have no experience with 3rd row seats
- It's a 4 cyl and rather anemic all in the name of MPG, so they have to put in a Turbo and though Subaru has had great experience and very good records with this it depends on the owner's care and maintenance as to how long it will last due to the additional stresses placed upon the engine.
Pilot Plus & Minuses
+ Has honda reputation though honda's transmissions can be tricky
+ Has a V6 with plenty of power
+/- Styling some may like it, some may not
+/- Have no experience with 3rd row seats
Highlander Plus and Minuses
+ Has Toyota's reputation
+ Has V6 with plenty of power
+ Has heated wipers
+ Has rear camera washers
+/- styling & 3rd row seats
For me it would be the Highlander only because I think it would last longer
+ It's a Subaru (I've owned them and their are bullet proof)
+/- Subaru builds its own transmissions and they are the manufacturer with the most experience with CVT, but it's a CVT with the inherent shortcomings
+/- Have no experience with 3rd row seats
- It's a 4 cyl and rather anemic all in the name of MPG, so they have to put in a Turbo and though Subaru has had great experience and very good records with this it depends on the owner's care and maintenance as to how long it will last due to the additional stresses placed upon the engine.
Pilot Plus & Minuses
+ Has honda reputation though honda's transmissions can be tricky
+ Has a V6 with plenty of power
+/- Styling some may like it, some may not
+/- Have no experience with 3rd row seats
Highlander Plus and Minuses
+ Has Toyota's reputation
+ Has V6 with plenty of power
+ Has heated wipers
+ Has rear camera washers
+/- styling & 3rd row seats
For me it would be the Highlander only because I think it would last longer
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The Highlander has treated us pretty well. My wife had a 2010 Highlander that she drove until 210k miles and currently has a 2016 Highlander sitting at 95k miles. In over 300k miles combined the only issue we had was the drivers side window falling off the track on the 2010. It is worth noting that both of them had a 6 speed so I can't really comment on the 8 speed issues.
That being said, I think all 3 of these would be good options.
That being said, I think all 3 of these would be good options.
Bought a 2019 Highlander SE in October. It is a good car, nothing major to complain about. It is the wife's daily driver. My only issues are: the infotainment system is really bad (much better on 2020 model), the headlights are not great, and the passenger seat sits up way too high if you are tall or have a long torso. Third row lacks leg room.
We didn't look at any other vehicles. The wife drove the Highlander and liked it. I thought about the Pallisade and its Kia cousin, but they are not worth the asking price (you're lucky to get $2500 off sticker). The Ascent has the 4 cylinder turbo and a CVT, and no deals because it is new. I wanted to look at a Durango but she really liked the Highlander so we bought one. We thought about the Honda Pilot and probably should have test drove it.
The 2020 Highlander is better for the things I don't like about our 2019, but prices will be higher. The 2019s actually have less rebates on them now than they did before ($2500 vs $3000). After the rebate and negotiation, we got our 2019 MSRP $44,200 for just under $36,000 plus TTL. You won't get pricing like that on a 2020.
We didn't look at any other vehicles. The wife drove the Highlander and liked it. I thought about the Pallisade and its Kia cousin, but they are not worth the asking price (you're lucky to get $2500 off sticker). The Ascent has the 4 cylinder turbo and a CVT, and no deals because it is new. I wanted to look at a Durango but she really liked the Highlander so we bought one. We thought about the Honda Pilot and probably should have test drove it.
The 2020 Highlander is better for the things I don't like about our 2019, but prices will be higher. The 2019s actually have less rebates on them now than they did before ($2500 vs $3000). After the rebate and negotiation, we got our 2019 MSRP $44,200 for just under $36,000 plus TTL. You won't get pricing like that on a 2020.
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No hybrid, no CVT, be careful with certain Honda ATF's, no one around me work on Subarus, never buy the first or second year of a new model.
C'mon, you know what your gut is telling you.
Oh, what a feeling....
Someone in my family was hit by a tractor trailer almost head on at 50 mph. We believe the structure and build quality of the Highlander saved his life.
He bought another Highlander.
C'mon, you know what your gut is telling you.
Oh, what a feeling....
Someone in my family was hit by a tractor trailer almost head on at 50 mph. We believe the structure and build quality of the Highlander saved his life.
He bought another Highlander.
When I was on the market for family vehicle, I quickly realized that proper solution is minivan. Everything else is just bunch of compromises. Now, that being said, since it is no option for you, here is what I figured out testing VW Atlas, Pilot, HL. I did not want to touch Subaru as it has CVT.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
At the time we bought our Pilot, the newest generation of Highlander wasn't out yet. The previous generation Highlander felt a little smaller, and I'm not sure the one we test drove had Apple Carplay. For us it came down to the VW Atlas and Pilot. I liked the interior and exterior looks of the VW better but my wife preferred the Honda since she loved her 2006 Pilot. Both dealers were willing to discount the price quite a bit. If we were buying again today, I would want to check out the 2020 Highlander Hybrid though. At 35 mpg, you are talking almost 50% better fuel economy over the Pilot (fuelly.com average is right around 20 mpg). We are happy though with the decision we made.
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by Gebo
Someone in my family was hit by a tractor trailer almost head on at 50 mph. We believe the structure and build quality of the Highlander saved his life.
He bought another Highlander.
I'm glad that family member is OK, but they likely would have faired the same in any of the vehicles the OP is considering.
Someone in my family was hit by a tractor trailer almost head on at 50 mph. We believe the structure and build quality of the Highlander saved his life.
He bought another Highlander.
I'm glad that family member is OK, but they likely would have faired the same in any of the vehicles the OP is considering.
Originally Posted by czbrian
At the time we bought our Pilot, the newest generation of Highlander wasn't out yet. The previous generation Highlander felt a little smaller, and I'm not sure the one we test drove had Apple Carplay. For us it came down to the VW Atlas and Pilot. I liked the interior and exterior looks of the VW better but my wife preferred the Honda since she loved her 2006 Pilot. Both dealers were willing to discount the price quite a bit. If we were buying again today, I would want to check out the 2020 Highlander Hybrid though. At 35 mpg, you are talking almost 50% better fuel economy over the Pilot (fuelly.com average is right around 20 mpg). We are happy though with the decision we made.
Careful though, at least in the RAV4, the hybrid's AWD system isn't as good, and goes away at 55mph and above.
At the time we bought our Pilot, the newest generation of Highlander wasn't out yet. The previous generation Highlander felt a little smaller, and I'm not sure the one we test drove had Apple Carplay. For us it came down to the VW Atlas and Pilot. I liked the interior and exterior looks of the VW better but my wife preferred the Honda since she loved her 2006 Pilot. Both dealers were willing to discount the price quite a bit. If we were buying again today, I would want to check out the 2020 Highlander Hybrid though. At 35 mpg, you are talking almost 50% better fuel economy over the Pilot (fuelly.com average is right around 20 mpg). We are happy though with the decision we made.
Careful though, at least in the RAV4, the hybrid's AWD system isn't as good, and goes away at 55mph and above.
I saw a video review on the Subaru Ascent by Alex on Autos and the passenger room looked really good in the second row and not too shabby in the third row. He is not a small guy either. His demo had the front and middle seats set for himself and even with that he was good in the third row though the headroom got tight in the corner.
That could make a difference on longer trips.
That could make a difference on longer trips.
just get the highlander!
Originally Posted by edyvw
When I was on the market for family vehicle, I quickly realized that proper solution is minivan. Everything else is just bunch of compromises. Now, that being said, since it is no option for you, here is what I figured out testing VW Atlas, Pilot, HL. I did not want to touch Subaru as it has CVT.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
In real world use, I have driven full time, and reactive awd systems and found absolutely zero advantage to the full time system in ice and snow. For offroading, maybe the fulltime has value, but almost all Pilot, Highlander, ascent customers are looking at awd from a prospect of snow, ice, rain, and at worst light gravel/sand/a bit of mud at the family bbq when parking behind the woodshed on the back 40.
When I was on the market for family vehicle, I quickly realized that proper solution is minivan. Everything else is just bunch of compromises. Now, that being said, since it is no option for you, here is what I figured out testing VW Atlas, Pilot, HL. I did not want to touch Subaru as it has CVT.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
In real world use, I have driven full time, and reactive awd systems and found absolutely zero advantage to the full time system in ice and snow. For offroading, maybe the fulltime has value, but almost all Pilot, Highlander, ascent customers are looking at awd from a prospect of snow, ice, rain, and at worst light gravel/sand/a bit of mud at the family bbq when parking behind the woodshed on the back 40.
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
When I was on the market for family vehicle, I quickly realized that proper solution is minivan. Everything else is just bunch of compromises. Now, that being said, since it is no option for you, here is what I figured out testing VW Atlas, Pilot, HL. I did not want to touch Subaru as it has CVT.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
In real world use, I have driven full time, and reactive awd systems and found absolutely zero advantage to the full time system in ice and snow. For offroading, maybe the fulltime has value, but almost all Pilot, Highlander, ascent customers are looking at awd from a prospect of snow, ice, rain, and at worst light gravel/sand/a bit of mud at the family bbq when parking behind the woodshed on the back 40.
I've driven several part-time AWD setups in inclement weather and it really does take some aggressive maneuvers to tell the difference. I remember one experience in a Ford Escape 2.0T (this was something like 6 years ago, IIRC) that was disconcertingly unpredictable when aggressively getting out into traffic on wet roads. The rear end power would come in unpredictably and then result in varying amounts of understeer (i.e., transition toward, but never reaching over-steer - never over-steer, for obvious reasons). The road was INCREDIBLY packed at all times and you need to either:
1. Wait for a small hole and gun it to get in or
2. Drive like the locals and slowly creep out into the intersection until traffic literally stops for you.
-----note: I found these intersection creepers to be incredibly stupid and dangerous
//
Subaru's AWD, especially in a turbo application, will usually produce a predictable amount of steering, even as VDC engages the brakes. In the snow, this usually results in some diagonal action instead of excessive under-steer in FWD or varying amounts of rear-axle power in part-time AWD.
I can also imagine that Subaru's AWD would result in slightly better getting-unstuck behavior, as you rock the vehicle back and forth to get loose.
//
During sedate driving in inclement weather between part-time and full-time AWD? No difference.
Originally Posted by edyvw
When I was on the market for family vehicle, I quickly realized that proper solution is minivan. Everything else is just bunch of compromises. Now, that being said, since it is no option for you, here is what I figured out testing VW Atlas, Pilot, HL. I did not want to touch Subaru as it has CVT.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
In real world use, I have driven full time, and reactive awd systems and found absolutely zero advantage to the full time system in ice and snow. For offroading, maybe the fulltime has value, but almost all Pilot, Highlander, ascent customers are looking at awd from a prospect of snow, ice, rain, and at worst light gravel/sand/a bit of mud at the family bbq when parking behind the woodshed on the back 40.
I've driven several part-time AWD setups in inclement weather and it really does take some aggressive maneuvers to tell the difference. I remember one experience in a Ford Escape 2.0T (this was something like 6 years ago, IIRC) that was disconcertingly unpredictable when aggressively getting out into traffic on wet roads. The rear end power would come in unpredictably and then result in varying amounts of understeer (i.e., transition toward, but never reaching over-steer - never over-steer, for obvious reasons). The road was INCREDIBLY packed at all times and you need to either:
1. Wait for a small hole and gun it to get in or
2. Drive like the locals and slowly creep out into the intersection until traffic literally stops for you.
-----note: I found these intersection creepers to be incredibly stupid and dangerous
//
Subaru's AWD, especially in a turbo application, will usually produce a predictable amount of steering, even as VDC engages the brakes. In the snow, this usually results in some diagonal action instead of excessive under-steer in FWD or varying amounts of rear-axle power in part-time AWD.
I can also imagine that Subaru's AWD would result in slightly better getting-unstuck behavior, as you rock the vehicle back and forth to get loose.
//
During sedate driving in inclement weather between part-time and full-time AWD? No difference.
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
When I was on the market for family vehicle, I quickly realized that proper solution is minivan. Everything else is just bunch of compromises. Now, that being said, since it is no option for you, here is what I figured out testing VW Atlas, Pilot, HL. I did not want to touch Subaru as it has CVT.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
In real world use, I have driven full time, and reactive awd systems and found absolutely zero advantage to the full time system in ice and snow. For offroading, maybe the fulltime has value, but almost all Pilot, Highlander, ascent customers are looking at awd from a prospect of snow, ice, rain, and at worst light gravel/sand/a bit of mud at the family bbq when parking behind the woodshed on the back 40.
I've driven several part-time AWD setups in inclement weather and it really does take some aggressive maneuvers to tell the difference. I remember one experience in a Ford Escape 2.0T (this was something like 6 years ago, IIRC) that was disconcertingly unpredictable when aggressively getting out into traffic on wet roads. The rear end power would come in unpredictably and then result in varying amounts of understeer (i.e., transition toward, but never reaching over-steer - never over-steer, for obvious reasons). The road was INCREDIBLY packed at all times and you need to either:
1. Wait for a small hole and gun it to get in or
2. Drive like the locals and slowly creep out into the intersection until traffic literally stops for you.
-----note: I found these intersection creepers to be incredibly stupid and dangerous
//
Subaru's AWD, especially in a turbo application, will usually produce a predictable amount of steering, even as VDC engages the brakes. In the snow, this usually results in some diagonal action instead of excessive under-steer in FWD or varying amounts of rear-axle power in part-time AWD.
I can also imagine that Subaru's AWD would result in slightly better getting-unstuck behavior, as you rock the vehicle back and forth to get loose.
//
During sedate driving in inclement weather between part-time and full-time AWD? No difference.
I found the reactive AWD was more predictable. The All-time was a Jeep Grand Cherokee with QD2 ELSD's F/R with 52/48 full-time split and 0-100 per tire, available. The reactive was a 2015 and a 2019 CX5 AWD. In snow and ice, both would slide if you tried to power through a corner too hard. Both were well balance though, and gave you exactly what you asked for. In direct acceleration, the Jeep would kick a little bit out of line while the CX5 would just GO until you reached the traction threshold of all 4 tires. I'd personally say they were equal to one another though, in ice/snow. Offroading those ELSD's win though.
Originally Posted by Ws6
Originally Posted by edyvw
When I was on the market for family vehicle, I quickly realized that proper solution is minivan. Everything else is just bunch of compromises. Now, that being said, since it is no option for you, here is what I figured out testing VW Atlas, Pilot, HL. I did not want to touch Subaru as it has CVT.
Pilot is much better family performer than HL. It is substantially bigger where really matters, third row and trunk. With third row up you actually still have usable space in Pilot's trunk. In HL, not so much.
Engine in Pilot feels as it does not have that much power, but actually it is very quick. HL engine is very anemic at lower rpm, an achievement considering it has more torque than predecessor, but due to Atkinson cycle, all usable power is very, very high. Not really good for that type of an vehicle. HL had serious issues with 8 speed, as well as Pilot with 9 speed (programming, though in HL there were hardware failures). Both transmissions are polished by now.
Both drive, well like appliance SUV's. It is meaningless saying anything about that because there is nothing to say.
Pilot has much better AWD in this generation, however, it is part time. Still, both will do much better job than FWD.
I also tested Atlas, and of three drives by far best, has by far the most space (actually it is not even close). Has extremely reliable engine that is in use for 15 years already. Transmission is same as Toyota's, Aisin 8 speed, except VW did much better job in programming. Also, it shifts faster than transmissions in Pilot and especially Toyota. Haldex AWD is much better than those in Toyota and Honda. ENgine sound is actually real perversion as VR6 has very specific sound.
I personally did not like the fact that VW tried everything possible to increase mpg which is as not as good as Toyota and especially Honda. Torque is much better at lower rpm's, but due to some changes in engine management, not as strong in upper rpm's as it is in other vehicles where this engine finds its place.
Personally, if I were going for family SUV I would go Atlas, but all pale in practicality compared to minivan.
In real world use, I have driven full time, and reactive awd systems and found absolutely zero advantage to the full time system in ice and snow. For offroading, maybe the fulltime has value, but almost all Pilot, Highlander, ascent customers are looking at awd from a prospect of snow, ice, rain, and at worst light gravel/sand/a bit of mud at the family bbq when parking behind the woodshed on the back 40.
I've driven several part-time AWD setups in inclement weather and it really does take some aggressive maneuvers to tell the difference. I remember one experience in a Ford Escape 2.0T (this was something like 6 years ago, IIRC) that was disconcertingly unpredictable when aggressively getting out into traffic on wet roads. The rear end power would come in unpredictably and then result in varying amounts of understeer (i.e., transition toward, but never reaching over-steer - never over-steer, for obvious reasons). The road was INCREDIBLY packed at all times and you need to either:
1. Wait for a small hole and gun it to get in or
2. Drive like the locals and slowly creep out into the intersection until traffic literally stops for you.
-----note: I found these intersection creepers to be incredibly stupid and dangerous
//
Subaru's AWD, especially in a turbo application, will usually produce a predictable amount of steering, even as VDC engages the brakes. In the snow, this usually results in some diagonal action instead of excessive under-steer in FWD or varying amounts of rear-axle power in part-time AWD.
I can also imagine that Subaru's AWD would result in slightly better getting-unstuck behavior, as you rock the vehicle back and forth to get loose.
//
During sedate driving in inclement weather between part-time and full-time AWD? No difference.
I found the reactive AWD was more predictable. The All-time was a Jeep Grand Cherokee with QD2 ELSD's F/R with 52/48 full-time split and 0-100 per tire, available. The reactive was a 2015 and a 2019 CX5 AWD. In snow and ice, both would slide if you tried to power through a corner too hard. Both were well balance though, and gave you exactly what you asked for. In direct acceleration, the Jeep would kick a little bit out of line while the CX5 would just GO until you reached the traction threshold of all 4 tires. I'd personally say they were equal to one another though, in ice/snow. Offroading those ELSD's win though.
I got rid of a 2018 Honda Pilot Touring for a few reasons:
1. Multiple trips for warranty work needed to replace defective parts and it needed more work - replacement of second row bench.
2. At 25K the interior had 7 or 8 squeaks and or rattles.
3. Boomy rear suspension with excessive road noise
4. Very annoying collision warning system to that was really bad on garbage day - it hated cans on the side of road to the point of flashing "Brake" at me up to 10-20x while driving to work which is only 8 miles.
5. Poor UOAs with high wear metals
6. Poorly shifting 9-speed
Overall I just did not feel like that vehicle was going to make 100K mile gracefully.
1. Multiple trips for warranty work needed to replace defective parts and it needed more work - replacement of second row bench.
2. At 25K the interior had 7 or 8 squeaks and or rattles.
3. Boomy rear suspension with excessive road noise
4. Very annoying collision warning system to that was really bad on garbage day - it hated cans on the side of road to the point of flashing "Brake" at me up to 10-20x while driving to work which is only 8 miles.
5. Poor UOAs with high wear metals
6. Poorly shifting 9-speed
Overall I just did not feel like that vehicle was going to make 100K mile gracefully.
Originally Posted by Bowline_Bandit
My wife and I are are looking for a bigger vehicle to accommodate our growing family. We live in New England so AWD/ 4WD is at the top of our list. She is not open to the idea of an AWD mini van.
We have narrowed our choices down between new 2020/ 2019 left over Pilot, Ascent, or Highlander. We are the type of people who try to get 10+ years/200,000+ reliable miles out of a vehicle and don't foresee these models not fitting our needs as far as cargo room, seating capacity, etc during that time
We have test driven all 3 and really like the Ascent but are hesitant to buy because it is a relatively new model with a new engine.
The Pilot and Highlander are close seconds and both seem to have good reputations. I'm a long time Toyota owner with about 750,000 miles on 4 vehicles so you can guess my bias! Pilots seem reliable and we are looking at a model with the 6 speed transmission. Unsure about Honda's variable cylinder management/ electric motor mounts. Are these concerns unfounded? Uptime, long term reliability and low cost of ownership are main factors for us vs bells, whistles and aesthetics.
Any additional input from any current owners of these vehicles? I've done some forum searching but haven't seen much info on the nitty gritty that I want to know about. Most people seem concerned with style, new features and dont really get into discussions on how their new car will fare in many years and miles to come.
I currently own ‘16 EXL Pilot. I don't drive it much as it is primarily used as a kids hauler and my wife loves it.
Although, here are the issues by 38k miles:
1. Roof trim got loose within a first month of ownership - replaced under warranty.
2. Substantial piston slap before the engine warms up. Dealer looked at it, tested brand new pilot on the lot and it did the same - said it's normal.
3. Chirping high pressure fuel pump - there'a a TSB for to replace but it doesn't really affect the car drivability so i just let it roll as is.
4. Multiple rattles around the car - don't care, wife's car and she doesn't care.
5. There's a noise in front suspension - no clue what's the cause of it, everything check out ok.
6. There's a vibration in the steering wheel while hard braking at highway speeds - likely rotors/pads need to be replaced despite being barely worn.
7.keyless entry system error just popped up yesterday- looks like this is very common for this gen pilots, remedy push start button replacement- 450$ at the dealer.
8. Injectors are failing at different mileage due to manufacturing issue according to TSB. Honda is aware but replaces them under warranty only within 36k of original miles. 1500$ at the dealer if out of the warranty.
9. Radio unit is garbage, loosing signal all the time. There's a TSB for it but Wife doesn't care for quality sound so I don't bother fixing it.
10. Battery suddenly died at 3yrs mark.
11. factory installed bridgeatones are garbage that lasted 33k only.
I'm not sure if I should continue. Still have 1.5yrs of extended warranty so i'll keep the car till it expires.
But, to be fair, it never failed to deliver me/my wife with kids to intended destination (knock on wood).
Take it for what it's worth
Cheers
My wife and I are are looking for a bigger vehicle to accommodate our growing family. We live in New England so AWD/ 4WD is at the top of our list. She is not open to the idea of an AWD mini van.
We have narrowed our choices down between new 2020/ 2019 left over Pilot, Ascent, or Highlander. We are the type of people who try to get 10+ years/200,000+ reliable miles out of a vehicle and don't foresee these models not fitting our needs as far as cargo room, seating capacity, etc during that time
We have test driven all 3 and really like the Ascent but are hesitant to buy because it is a relatively new model with a new engine.
The Pilot and Highlander are close seconds and both seem to have good reputations. I'm a long time Toyota owner with about 750,000 miles on 4 vehicles so you can guess my bias! Pilots seem reliable and we are looking at a model with the 6 speed transmission. Unsure about Honda's variable cylinder management/ electric motor mounts. Are these concerns unfounded? Uptime, long term reliability and low cost of ownership are main factors for us vs bells, whistles and aesthetics.
Any additional input from any current owners of these vehicles? I've done some forum searching but haven't seen much info on the nitty gritty that I want to know about. Most people seem concerned with style, new features and dont really get into discussions on how their new car will fare in many years and miles to come.
I currently own ‘16 EXL Pilot. I don't drive it much as it is primarily used as a kids hauler and my wife loves it.
Although, here are the issues by 38k miles:
1. Roof trim got loose within a first month of ownership - replaced under warranty.
2. Substantial piston slap before the engine warms up. Dealer looked at it, tested brand new pilot on the lot and it did the same - said it's normal.
3. Chirping high pressure fuel pump - there'a a TSB for to replace but it doesn't really affect the car drivability so i just let it roll as is.
4. Multiple rattles around the car - don't care, wife's car and she doesn't care.
5. There's a noise in front suspension - no clue what's the cause of it, everything check out ok.
6. There's a vibration in the steering wheel while hard braking at highway speeds - likely rotors/pads need to be replaced despite being barely worn.
7.keyless entry system error just popped up yesterday- looks like this is very common for this gen pilots, remedy push start button replacement- 450$ at the dealer.
8. Injectors are failing at different mileage due to manufacturing issue according to TSB. Honda is aware but replaces them under warranty only within 36k of original miles. 1500$ at the dealer if out of the warranty.
9. Radio unit is garbage, loosing signal all the time. There's a TSB for it but Wife doesn't care for quality sound so I don't bother fixing it.
10. Battery suddenly died at 3yrs mark.
11. factory installed bridgeatones are garbage that lasted 33k only.
I'm not sure if I should continue. Still have 1.5yrs of extended warranty so i'll keep the car till it expires.
But, to be fair, it never failed to deliver me/my wife with kids to intended destination (knock on wood).
Take it for what it's worth
Cheers
- Status
