New Amsoil 5w-40 AFL

[Nosmo King]

I have never met anyone using Amsoil.
I have never visited their website, or seen their product for sale in any store. I have heard that it is 'good' and 'expensive' from members of this site, many whose opinions I have come to respect.

However I think in this day and age it is entirely reasonable of me to be somewhat suspicious as to why their oils do not appear on any car manufacturers 'approved lists'.

Today more than any time in history we need accountability. I want to be sure the products I purchase are capable of doing the job at a fair price.

Mobil 1 0w-40 seems to meet all the tests out there and is recommended by the three major European manufacturers as well ( I believe ) in some GM and Ford products.

Why would not Amsoil get to the same position?

 

[buster]

Amsoil is not a full API oil, which is why it won't be a manufactuer approved oil.

Tooslick said in the past, they buy additive packages from Lubrizol, who makes them for many oil blenders (which BTW are most oil companies) that are already approved. They then work with chemists to fine tune/enhance the product with the base oils and then you have the final product. This is how I thought it's always been done. Ulitimately you let UOA's speak for the oil.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
yes Buster the UOAs do the talking and the likes of the 3MP test confirms the COST/BENEFITS if any!

Over many many years I have been involved with European vehicles both at Factory level and Internationally I have learned to respect their testing methodologies - especially those concerning lubricants

It is Amsoil's choice to "operate on the fringe" of the testing regimes. That choice is no doubt driven by cost and purpose (dont't do it if it is not needed to sell the product) and means that they know the consequences of dwelling on the fringe very well indeed

In many Worldwide Markets the engine or vehicle maker WILL NOT entertain claims arising from the use of non factory specified lubricants. This is regardless of what is written here from time to time

A little while back some people on this Board were critical of VW's Specs - well like Amsoil they make a balanced choice and for a Worldwide Marketplace. We should not presume that we know better than the VW protocols involved - they know their products better than anybody on here!

The same can be said for Porsche and MB who have had their own lubricant testing protocols long before the likes of Amsoil hit the marketplace. These protocols reflect their own testing regimes from product design stage thru development, testing and on to production. Their choice is confirmed by the warranty rates. This is all based on experience and knowledge of their markets of course

I do not use Amsoil and by all accounts some of their range are probably good products. Cost effective? - well I've yet to see the real "benefits" of any of the exotic lubricants reflected by lowering costs or extending component life as is often promoted. I doubt we ever will!

I do not and would not use a lubricant that is not Approved by the Manufacturer and is appropriately "certified" against the standards of ACEA - and API as required. It merely confirms that the Oil maker is prepared to bite the bullet and expose their product(s) to the reality check

Regards
Doug

MY02 Subaru Outback 2.5 manual (Delvac 1)
MY98 BMW Z3 2.8 manual (Delvac 1)
MY89 Porsche 928 S4 Auto (Delvac 1)

 

[buster]

quote:

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Cost effective? - well I've yet to see the real "benefits" of any of the exotic lubricants reflected by lowering costs or extending component life as is often promoted. I doubt we ever will!

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I agree. For me, synthetics offer peice of mind and engine cleanliness.

 

[TooSlick]

Results after 6000 miles in the 3MP test:


.....Mobil 1, 5w-30/Amsoil 5w-30

Al, 6 ppm/3 ppm
Cr, 2 ppm/1 ppm
Fe, 26 ppm/13 ppm
Cu, 105 ppm/65 ppm
Pb, 11 ppm/7 ppm
Sn, 4 ppm/2 ppm

That's basically a 50% across the board reduction in wear rates compared to Mobil 1, which is already an excellent product ....

"On the fringe" indeed!

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Ted, you have not factored in the fact that the M1 was in an engine seriously bedding in.

As we all "agreed" on here recently the ride for Amsoil must be better 24k on! The bedding down process was almost complete before the Amsoil was even added

Ultimate performance? we will see - and in reality the variances are too hard to call when you take all these factors into account

I do not subscribe to the viewpoint of a "bad" oil and I have never and will never rubbish a product I know nothing about. Amsoil is such a product

However the cost effectiveness of any product applies to all of us

Regards
Doug

 

[Jason8691]

Its amazing how much controversy one little oil company can create! I thought the Castrol thing was bad, whew! By the way, I just put Redlines 5W40 in my 4.3 vortec.

[ April 08, 2004, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Jason8691 ]

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Hi,
yes Buster the UOAs do the talking and the likes of the 3MP test confirms the COST/BENEFITS if any!
In many Worldwide Markets the engine or vehicle maker WILL NOT entertain claims arising from the use of non factory specified lubricants. This is regardless of what is written here from time to time

---

Doug:

I will readily defer to the engineers and techs as to the details of technical issues, since all I am is a heavily studied armchair engineer/mech who at most has pulled off a few easy-to-medium car tweaks.

On the other hand, I am a licensed lawyer (Florida bar), and I have a had a couple brushes with Moss-Magnuson (and the Florida Lemon Law too). [Now wait everyone, don't flame me into oblivion -- I'm a dedicated motorhead machine lover too!]. At least in the U.S. (and perhaps you were using the term "world wide markets" to exclude the U.S.), Moss-Magnuson does put the burden on the car maker to prove a causal link to something beyond their responsibility if they want to deny a wty claim. So legally, the Amsoil or Redline user is going to be in a pretty good position, at least theoretically.

There is merit to what you suggest, however, from a purely practical point of view. I always advise clients to avoid a fight if they can. So the Amsoil user may win a court case against VW or GM or whoever, but they will do so after a fight that might take a year or two to win, and who wants to bother with that? I don't know about the rest of you, but I need my darned car to WORK (and drive me to work), not be a court exhibit for two years! So as a lawyer, I salivate at the thought of facing a car company dumb enough to to fight a $15,000 fight over an engine they can replace for $5,000 with a burden of proof they virtually can't meet! As an owner, no thanks. . .

All that said, I've got five qts of Amsoil 5W-30 (ASL) in my 2003 V-6 Camry right now.

 

[VeeDubb]

quote:

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Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

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Originally posted by VeeDubb:
I don't use Amsoil but I think some of the attacks (some of them veiled) on the Amsoil folks are pretty biased. Has Redline officially tested their oils? Don't see folks going after them.

---

You don't see Redline claiming to meet all these specs, either. If they did, I'd have the same questions for them that I have for Amsoil.

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G-Man,
When I made that comment, your name didn't even cross my mind. I learn a lot from your posts and from what I can see, you are very objective. You call B.S. when you see it regardless of brand and I can respect that.

 

[Jason8691]

G-Man, or maybe VDubb:
The Redline 5W40 I just put in my truck states on the back that it is formulated to meet the requirements of ACEA A3 and B3. Now I guess that could be taken to mean its only "formulated" to meet it instead of actually being tested and meeting those requirements.

 

[VeeDubb]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jason8691:
G-Man, or maybe VDubb:
The Redline 5W40 I just put in my truck states on the back that it is formulated to meet the requirements of ACEA A3 and B3. Now I guess that could be taken to mean its only "formulated" to meet it instead of actually being tested and meeting those requirements.

---

Thanks for for the info, Jason.
To me, whether Redline or Amsoil meet or don't meet the specs is not relevant anymore. They have proven to be good performers based on UOAs here, have good specs (e.g. high HTHS), and there is a ton of information about these oils on this board. It's not like folks here are shooting in the dark if they decide to use Redline or Amsoil.

If we were talkin about Billy Bob's snake oil with no UOAs, no specs, and no expert opinions, you bet I'd wanna see that API, ACEA, etc. on the back of the bottle.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
ekpolk - you covered the ground very well and more elequently than I

I work with many well captilised Companies who operate expensive machinery and WE have learnt the benefits of constant reality checks!

An engine Manufacturer can make the downtime issue extremely costly when warranty issues emerge. And this is the reality as many of them have been "stitched up" by the use of non conforming parts or oils that are marginal. They are not silly, they (mostly) know what they are talking about and their recording systems are more and more "internationalised" and comprehensive. And accurate!

So if a sludged up engine has a bearing failure or has high crankcase pressure and the operator says:
"Yes my engines only run a CI-4 oil"

They know the facts from history,their contacts with the Oil Insustry and the normal supplier of lubricants to the Operator. They may even demand proof of purchase etc.

As an example; Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel and Cummins have faced these issues on the International scene in the last several decades The days of lying to avoid claims are well over - they only deal in the facts and reality - AS THE OPERATOR MUST DO!

I have seen these issues so many times and the consequences are indeed costly. So while "the Law" may be in your favour the prolonged legal debates and downtime and the repurchase/resale issues are very very real - and VERY COSTLY!

I advise all of my Customers to only use those products - and especially lubricants - that are either specified (Brand or as a specification) by the Manufacturer or meet those specifications via Approval Lists. I have witnessed too much to the contrary to take risks!

The same applies to the situation of Quality Assurance (QA) via the ISO Standards - you meet it or you don't! That is why certification via the oil specification standards is so important

You either meet it and display it or you don't. No fringe dwelling! No half pregnancies either!

Regards

[ April 08, 2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[cryptokid]

their new oil sounds nice i guess, but what is the deal with some of you people saying "this is a fine oil bla bla" when we have no analisis on it? just from reading a few numbers you are magically able to tell how good this oil is? thats bs.

 

[haley10]

API does have a formal licensing procedure. Consequently, I think only the Amsoil XL-7500 displays the API doughnut and starburst symbol(5-30, 10-30).

ACEA spec. only require that you meet them and keep proper documentation. It is not a licensing program.

API is such a lame spec. anyway and (fraud does occur with some discounters boot-legging the symbols), who cares.

 

[VeeDubb]

Crypto,
I can't speak for others, but for me, Amsoil has been pretty consistent in making good products. So I was speaking generally about Amsoil oils, not saying that this particular grade of 5w-40 is a great oil or whatever.

I dunno if I'll ever use this oil given cheaper alternatives out there (plus I don't do extended drains) so whether it is a fine oil or not may never be relevant for me personally.

What I took objection to are the cries about warranty issues and Amsoil and the sarcastic comments toward the Amsoil dealers, who have been more than willing to help people out on this board whether they use Amsoil or not.

Doug,
In your situation, I probably would do as you do which is to stick to the approved specs. But for most consumers in the U.S., there is NO way a dealer will void a warranty on a car because of Amsoil. Even if some uptight dealer did, I could easily find another dealer who will honor the warranty; in fact, I would probably want to switch dealers because I'm likely to have other problems with the uptight dealer beyond just the oil issue.

In fact, I have never heard of a VW dealer here that even uses an ACEA A3 oil let alone a VW50X oil. Most dealers use either (a) Castrol GTX, (b) Pennzoil dino, (c) Mobil Drive Clean, and usually in the wrong grade (10w-30 or 20w-50). There is no way I'm going to take crap from a dealer that doesn't follow the owners manual but will give me crap about using a synthetic oil that has a decent reputation.

[ April 09, 2004, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: VeeDubb ]

 

[cryptokid]

veedubb, i was thinking more along the lines of busters comments on the first page.

 

[VeeDubb]

quote:

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Originally posted by cryptokid:
veedubb, i was thinking more along the lines of busters comments on the first page.

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Okay. Gotcha

 

[buster]

In Amsoil's defense, they have TONS of data from used oil analysis from all their customers using their products and sending them samples. This data is highly valuable. How many people do you think send in UOA's of M1? Not many. Delvac 1 is most likely the only oil samples EM labs see. So if their oils were flawed and didn't meet the specs. I think their would be huge liability risks and engine failures. Same goes for Redline. I'm sure if their product had problems, we'd here about engine faiures/sludge etc. and I personally have never heard anything like that with both RL and Amsoil. And with the internet, rumors spread like wild fire and we'd be hearing a lot about it.

[ April 09, 2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

The ACEA has no formal licensing program like the American Petroleum Institute ....

However, in order to claim ACEA performance, you have to maintain the necessary documentation on file that shows your formulation chemistry meets the test requirements for wear, deposits, oil degradation, oil consumption, etc.

FWIW, most of the Royal Purple street formulations use low levels of ZDDP and are API licensed.

 

[TooSlick]

I shouldn't get all crazy over these post as folks are entitled to their opinions ....

I will point out that Amsoil has an API, CI-4 license on their 15w-40 synthetic blend, "PCO" and this oil is also in the Mack EON+ approval list and the Cummins CES 20077 list. That oil is perhaps 30% PAO and isn't nearly as good as their 15w-40, HD Diesel and Marine engine oil.

Ask any oil analysis lab about how well "AME" holds up in commercial diesel engines, or ask George Morrison at AVLube, who does oil analysis for fleet customers.

Tooslick