Never really liked the look of the G80 M3 until I saw this one

[xspeedy]

Agree but BMW always said that when it comes to family haulers their customers want the X5/X3 and they'll buy the M version. Proof is in BMW sales. SUV's dominate the US market.

True, but real enthusiasts don’t buy crossovers.

I'll just be kind and brief, and say it's not for me, for myriad reasons, aesthetically, technically and philosophically.

BMW is chasing a different audience than it did a couple decades or so ago, the cars have become less distinctive relative to the competition in many respects, and in others, like the styling, overzealous and polarizing on purpose.

I'll take that nice E30 M3 pictured all day, any day, even though it's old, and wasn't even the fastest or most powerful when it sat on the showroom floor.

It was built for a specific purpose, backed that up with its results, and had an enduring appeal that's now reflected in their values on the used market.

Thirty years from now, how much of its original price will a ratty, overly modded G80 command? A rarer, pristine model? I doubt it will look like this (original MSRP $35k), even accounting for the market, and asking prices on places like that, or CCA ad listings.

PCD looks like a nice experience, and is great to have, but the elimnination of ED for U.S. buyers also speaks to BMW's current priorities.

To me BMW lost it with the F30. I had the E90 and when I drove the F30, it was such rubbish. No steering feel due to poor EPAS and mushy brakes. The E90 didn’t look the best, but it drove like a proper BMW.

 

[John105]

But on the other hand you can't join the BMW M owners forum unless you have a true M car; my F22 M235i didn't pass muster. At least I can join the AMG forum even though I only own an AMG lite.
One thing that I really dislike about the newer BMWs is the widescreen digital dash. I can tolerate the awkward design, but I hate having many of the buttons/switches moved to the touchscreen.
I reluctantly accepted the reality that from the F10 on you had to pay extra to get a BMW that performed the way ALL BMWs used to perform, but now Munich also makes you take a thick rancid slice of ugly styling as well.

I actually remember that annoying AMG guy, "C43 Bro, do you AMG?" I would say even though he had the C63, he was such a whiner lol but in the club

 

[Oillover]

I'll take that nice E30 M3 pictured all day, any day, even though it's old, and wasn't even the fastest or most powerful when it sat on the showroom floor.

It was built for a specific purpose, backed that up with its results, and had an enduring appeal that's now reflected in their values on the used market.

Thirty years from now, how much of its original price will a ratty, overly modded G80 command? A rarer, pristine model? I doubt it will look like this (original MSRP $35k), even accounting for the market, and asking prices on places like that, or CCA ad listings.

PCD looks like a nice experience, and is great to have, but the elimnination of ED for U.S. buyers also speaks to BMW's current priorities.

I totally agree
But honestly, if it weren't for the e30 M3 (and the success of the e30 in general) BMW would probably have folded decades ago.

This is why I've never sold my e30. It was special when it was released and continues to be today.
Nothing else was as simple, purpose-built or reliable as the e30 platform.
To me, it was the pinnacle of BMW's success.

 

[RooflessVW]

True, but real enthusiasts don’t buy crossovers.

If I was to buy any recent BMW it would be an E70 X5M.

Beast.

 

[John105]

I totally agree
But honestly, if it weren't for the e30 M3 (and the success of the e30 in general) BMW would probably have folded decades ago.

This is why I've never sold my e30. It was special when it was released and continues to be today.
Nothing else was as simple, purpose-built or reliable as the e30 platform.
To me, it was the pinnacle of BMW's success.

No doubt the car co. has changed greatly. I would say become a mainstream cater to the masses brand. BMW has always simply commanded a premium just because, but the further back we go, the more that was earned imho.

My 2007 has a $1400 sport package. It gave the staggered wheels/tires, sport seats, sport shocks, and EXTERNAL ENGINE OIL COOLER. People said it was a no-brainer, $1400 was worth it for tires and seats alone. Kinda funny how none of the literature mentioned the oil cooler nor the sport steering wheel, they just came along with the ZSP option.

Why would they throw in an external engine oil cooler? Because it was for function, not for show. But that was then and this is now. Today, seems options are bundled the way Japanese cars always were. You want one thing that's $6,000 because you get 9 other things that are meaningless. my .02. But money overcomes anything I've said.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

That's not really what happened. They banned people who trolled almost every thread on the car and incessantly crapped up threads with hate on the grille, making the G8x subforum threads barely readable. I'm with them because it became extremely tiresome. Maybe they hit a few people that didn't deserve it, but I watched it unfold and can't say I miss any of the jerks that now show Banned in their profile.

Let me just say it was more like how I described it than not. I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[chris719]

Let me just say it was more like how I described it than not. I'm going to leave it at that.

I’ve been there since around 2004. I know how it went. We can agree to disagree.

 

[MCompact]

I'll just be kind and brief, and say it's not for me, for myriad reasons, aesthetically, technically and philosophically.

BMW is chasing a different audience than it did a couple decades or so ago, the cars have become less distinctive relative to the competition in many respects, and in others, like the styling, overzealous and polarizing on purpose.

I'll take that nice E30 M3 pictured all day, any day, even though it's old, and wasn't even the fastest or most powerful when it sat on the showroom floor.

It was built for a specific purpose, backed that up with its results, and had an enduring appeal that's now reflected in their values on the used market.

Thirty years from now, how much of its original price will a ratty, overly modded G80 command? A rarer, pristine model? I doubt it will look like this (original MSRP $35k), even accounting for the market, and asking prices on places like that, or CCA ad listings.

PCD looks like a nice experience, and is great to have, but the elimnination of ED for U.S. buyers also speaks to BMW's current priorities.

Although it's very slow by today's standards, my Club Sport nails what used to be the BMW essentials: communicative steering, neutral handing, a slick-shifting manual, and a motor that needs to be kept above 4,500 rpm to make adequate power- all in a light, compact (no pun intended) and practical coupe body style.

 

[2EHA]

second best looking m3 of all time

leaps and bounds better than the generic uninspired cookie cutter f80 that came before

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

I’ve been there since around 2004.

Same

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

True, but real enthusiasts don’t buy crossovers.


To me BMW lost it with the F30. I had the E90 and when I drove the F30, it was such rubbish. No steering feel due to poor EPAS and mushy brakes. The E90 didn’t look the best, but it drove like a proper BMW.

Well they need something to trailer their E46M3 on HPDE weekends. haha.

 

[KrisZ]

As an outsider looking in, that post on bimmerfest felt like one giant commercial and smelled of an influencer. Posting dinner pics, hotel rooms, man they’re not even trying to hide it anymore IMO.

 

[Carmudgeon]

People get a hard-on for any Individual color. If you saw this on a Toyota Avalon no one would look twice.

It already comes in a much better green (IMO) and you don't have to pay $5000 for it. Color is subjective though, and I enjoy reading the delivery threads where people pick up cars they specified and ordered. Much cooler than settling for something on the lot.

I don't remember if it was a standard color, but Oxford Green goes all the way back to the E31, at least, or perhaps at most.

So whatever it cost wasn't even spent on a truly special color, just a non-standard color/model configuration, and simply a fee for BMW to load a different mix into the paint booth. Paint-to-Sample it's not, never mind PTS+. But boy, $10-20k for a paint color…

Personally, I'm satisfied with standard color selections most of the time, and too cheap and practical to pay large sums for a different color that a body shop might have difficulty matching in the future. And upcharges for regular metallic paints are probably more marketing for sweeter profit than cost coverage, at least for the standard hues.

I totally agree
But honestly, if it weren't for the e30 M3 (and the success of the e30 in general) BMW would probably have folded decades ago.

This is why I've never sold my e30. It was special when it was released and continues to be today.
Nothing else was as simple, purpose-built or reliable as the e30 platform.
To me, it was the pinnacle of BMW's success.

E30 had the solid, old school sound and feel when shutting doors that didn't carry over to the E36. More mechanical, like one expects from a machine.

Although it's very slow by today's standards, my Club Sport nails what used to be the BMW essentials: communicative steering, neutral handing, a slick-shifting manual, and a motor that needs to be kept above 4,500 rpm to make adequate power- all in a light, compact (no pun intended) and practical coupe body style.

I've spent a fair amount of time in a ti.

On the most basic level, every model, top to bottom was imbued was a spirit, and feel that set them apart from their competitors, and made them feel more unqiue, and special.

Much of that has been lost, if not purposely abandoned, and sitting blindfolded in one now could be any car. You want that, or even something like a manual tranny, you now gotta buy the M model, which due to the overall mainstream platforms on which they're based, will be larger, heavier and more disconnected than before. They'll then happily charge you more for a "lightweight" or "competition" variant whose myriad drive modes will do their best, and might not even actually succeed, at replicating the basic goodness that used to come with every model, standard.

Those who love gizmos and technowizardy, and pretty carbon fiber trim to make their still porky car at least look like it's lightweight will eat it right up. Shareholders are happy.

Nothing wrong with that, but at least a Mazda, with the MX-5, or certainly that brand from Stuttgart recognize that some of the mainstream profits from SUVs can be put back into the niche models that still truly satisfy the faithful, maintain and do justice to the brand image, and don't necessarily have to be airtight business cases.

Now, kindly remove yourself from my Kentucky Bluegrass.

 

[chris719]

I don't remember if it was a standard color, but Oxford Green goes all the way back to the E31, at least, or perhaps at most.

So whatever it cost wasn't even spent on a truly special color, just a non-standard color/model configuration, and simply a fee for BMW to load a different mix into the paint booth. Paint-to-Sample it's not, never mind PTS+. But boy, $10-20k for a paint color…

Personally, I'm satisfied with standard color selections most of the time, and too cheap and practical to pay large sums for a different color that a body shop might have difficulty matching in the future. And upcharges for regular metallic paints are probably more marketing for sweeter profit than cost coverage, at least for the standard hues.



E30 had the solid, old school sound and feel when shutting doors that didn't carry over to the E36. More mechanical, like one expects from a machine.



I've spent a fair amount of time in a ti.

On the most basic level, every model, top to bottom was imbued was a spirit, and feel that set them apart from their competitors, and made them feel more unqiue, and special.

Much of that has been lost, if not purposely abandoned, and sitting blindfolded in one now could be any car. You want that, or even something like a manual tranny, you now gotta buy the M model, which due to the overall mainstream platforms on which they're based, will be larger, heavier and more disconnected than before. They'll then happily charge you more for a "lightweight" or "competition" variant whose myriad drive modes will do their best, and might not even actually succeed, at replicating the basic goodness that used to come with every model, standard.

Those who love gizmos and technowizardy, and pretty carbon fiber trim to make their still porky car at least look like it's lightweight will eat it right up. Shareholders are happy.

Nothing wrong with that, but at least a Mazda, with the MX-5, or certainly that brand from Stuttgart recognize that some of the mainstream profits from SUVs can be put back into the niche models that still truly satisfy the faithful, maintain and do justice to the brand image, and don't necessarily have to be airtight business cases.

Now, kindly remove yourself from my Kentucky Bluegrass.

I think people are overly hard on BMW. Their competitors have not covered themselves in glory either. Look at what MB is trying to pass off as the new C63. It’s incredibly heavy and even farther from the enthusiast’s mission. Audi still doing the BMW things but worse. Heavier and heavier cars with FWD bias requiring a reverse tire stagger like on the RS3.

BMW at least gives you the stick if you want it and gives you RWD if you want it. They also give you a subcompact 2 series that is based on the 3 platform cut down and not a tarted up FWD based transverse 4 cylinder car instead like Audi and MB. It pays a weight penalty for that, but the M2 with S58 engine and a manual transmission will not be equaled by any 4 or 5 cyl with Haldex.

Porsche does Porsche things because people pay Porsche prices. Everyone else just has to find out how to adapt to the changing automotive landscape.

 

[MCompact]

I think people are overly hard on BMW. Their competitors have not covered themselves in glory either. Look at what MB is trying to pass off as the new C63. It’s incredibly heavy and even farther from the enthusiast’s mission. Audi still doing the BMW things but worse. Heavier and heavier cars with FWD bias requiring a reverse tire stagger like on the RS3.

BMW at least gives you the stick if you want it and gives you RWD if you want it. They also give you a subcompact 2 series that is based on the 3 platform cut down and not a tarted up FWD based transverse 4 cylinder car instead like Audi and MB. It pays a weight penalty for that, but the M2 with S58 engine and a manual transmission will not be equaled by any 4 or 5 cyl with Haldex.

Porsche does Porsche things because people pay Porsche prices. Everyone else just has to find out how to adapt to the changing automotive landscape.

I became a BMW enthusiast in 1971 after reading about the Bavaria and its ability to cruise at 120 mph - as well as finding a copy of Turn Your Hymnals to 2002 by David E. Davis. In 1983 I finally bought a 1973 Bavaria and since then I’ve owned 11 other BMWs, including the two I still own. I’ve also been an active member of BMW CCA for over four decades. Last year was the first time I have ever replaced a BMW with a vehicle other than another BMW. I did consider buying a G42 M240i, but after an extended drive I found it to offer little more from an enthusiast standpoint than my F22 M235i. In addition, as one magazine noted, the G42 styling brief appears to be, “make it look like a Lego version of the F22.” An F87 M2 Comp will still turn my head, but nothing else in Munich’s current lineup appeals to me.

 

[JHZR2]

That is a beautiful color combination. Fun story too.

I picked up my 135i at the PC and it was a great time. It really is a worthwhile way to buy a BMW.

 

[Carmudgeon]

I think people are overly hard on BMW. Their competitors have not covered themselves in glory either. Look at what MB is trying to pass off as the new C63. It’s incredibly heavy and even farther from the enthusiast’s mission. Audi still doing the BMW things but worse. Heavier and heavier cars with FWD bias requiring a reverse tire stagger like on the RS3.

BMW at least gives you the stick if you want it and gives you RWD if you want it. They also give you a subcompact 2 series that is based on the 3 platform cut down and not a tarted up FWD based transverse 4 cylinder car instead like Audi and MB. It pays a weight penalty for that, but the M2 with S58 engine and a manual transmission will not be equaled by any 4 or 5 cyl with Haldex.

Porsche does Porsche things because people pay Porsche prices. Everyone else just has to find out how to adapt to the changing automotive landscape.

Harsh, perhaps. But also deserved.

Audi is doing what Audi has always done. Having finally acquired one and experienced one, I understand why they were never considered driver's cars.

Mercedes is doing what Mercedes has always done. Their sporty AMG models have followed the original AMG formula, power first, and if needed AWD to harness it. More brutish and pony car like.

That doesn't make them necessarily bad, but they are who they are, and have long been.

BMW did something different. Every model had a verve, and the M models were simply the regular ones dialed up. A little more styling flair, but still classy and not ostentatious. They were about being sweet, not being overpowering. Competitive performance, but not necessarily the quickest and fastest.

But over time, BMW has moved away from that, what set it apart from most, and into the same neighborhood as the other two. Did it have to, and deny its core faithful enthusiasts who wanted fun, but practical daily drivers to seek alternatives? Most of the fellow old fart BMW owners I hung with have kept their old models, and if they wanted new thrills, sought out used P-cars.

I don't believe that the people at FIZ have forgotten what a good car feels like, or how to make one, but they don't any longer, and a lot of that is by choice. The remarks by Biermann, and others who left during that period, revealed a company with changed priorites, and values.

Like them or not, BMW was once also at the BEV forefront, with the i project. But the execs got cold feet, and sensing that, that talent also fled, and whatever head start the company had was squandered, time wasted in the interim, and it's still playing catch up, when it could have been one of the leaders in that space.

Could, and would David Kiley have written his book about the company then, or now? At least they're not trotting out the tired, old "2002" heritage tropes in the marketing for the new stuff, because it would be laughable to those who knew those cars, and what they were about.

That E30 M3 speaks for itself. The M5 was the quintessential sports sedan, for the execs who wanted something a bit spicier than the regular 5ers. The M6 was suave, but had an iron fist inside that glove. The Goldilocks Ms.

Eventually, the M5 lost its manual tranny, and got a surfeit of power with AWD. The RWD hooligan mode might be good for kicks, but doesn't make the other traits go away.

The M6, M8, or whatever it is now, took the path of Elvis. M engines can be more complicated, and need special care and feeding, but the S63 just scares me when seen removed from the car.

Believe me, I look at every generation of BMW, and try to find one I can say I'd want, without reservation, but not any more. Having spent most of my time around 3ers, starting with the E21, I really wanted to like the G42, but there is absolutely no reason to desire a two-door coupe that weighs that much, and doesn't come with a manual tranny unless you opt for the M2. And notice I have only touched lightly upon aesthetics in all of this, being a subjective topic.

But I'll leave you with this one thing, perhaps the most damming.

Take a look at the G29/J29 twins, the Z4 and the Supra.

Strip the badges, put aside the styling, and judge them on how they drive.

Which has emerged as the favored one between the two? Which one now offers a manual transmission?

Which company has put forth a better effort, in this less encumbered and more focused niche segment, where certain characteristics are expeced, and valued?

Which company is the "appliance" maker, and which one used to be renown for its Ultimate Driving Machine slogan?

That answer should be discomforning to the folks in the building at Petuelring 130.

 

[chris719]

But I'll leave you with this one thing, perhaps the most damming.

Take a look at the G29/J29 twins, the Z4 and the Supra.

Strip the badges, put aside the styling, and judge them on how they drive.

Which has emerged as the favored one between the two? Which one now offers a manual transmission?

Which company has put forth a better effort, in this less encumbered and more focused niche segment, where certain characteristics are expeced, and valued?

Which company is the "appliance" maker, and which one used to be renown for its Ultimate Driving Machine slogan?

That answer should be discomforning to the folks in the building at Petuelring 130.

You're not wrong on the whole. I would point out though that the base Z4 already was available with a manual in some markets and the M40i is coming in a manual, it will be announced in around 3 weeks I believe. They are just slower to roll it out. I would also note that BMW has explicitly said the Z4 is more of a tourer and has since the E89. So, I think the G29 has done exactly what they set out to do. Whether or not you agree with the mission, that's a different question. It's still true that BMW and their suppliers have designed and built every single component of that Supra. The software is all BMW and Bosch. So, even if BMW is in decline, Toyota still had to come to them to get this car.

 

[Carmudgeon]

You're not wrong on the whole. I would point out though that the base Z4 already was available with a manual in some markets and the M40i is coming in a manual, it will be announced in around 3 weeks I believe. They are just slower to roll it out. I would also note that BMW has explicitly said the Z4 is more of a tourer and has since the E89. So, I think the G29 has done exactly what they set out to do. Whether or not you agree with the mission, that's a different question. It's still true that BMW and their suppliers have designed and built every single component of that Supra. The software is all BMW and Bosch. So, even if BMW is in decline, Toyota still had to come to them to get this car.

Another thing to consider -- the flagship M car is now a SUV, not a sports car competitior like Audi put forth with the R8 (or its eventual successor), or Mercedes AMG GT.

Whatever else could be said about the rest of their lineups, at least those two have the stones to compete in thet segment, and play with the 911s. Odd that a company that prides itself on driving pleasure, and sporty image, doesn't consistently do so.

 

[chris719]

Another thing to consider -- the flagship M car is now a SUV, not a sports car competitior like Audi put forth with the R8 (or its eventual successor), or Mercedes AMG GT.

Whatever else could be said about the rest of their lineups, at least those two have the stones to compete in thet segment, and play with the 911s. Odd that a company that prides itself on driving pleasure, and sporty image, doesn't consistently do so.

They have not competed in that segment since the M1 and decided they would not 30+ years ago.