Need an oil recommendation

[ovaltrackracer]

Hi.

I was told I should join here if I want to learn more about oil, so I decided I would. From the threads I have read already, I can see I'm at the right place.

I'm here because I need some help selecting oil for my car. I own a 1995 Honda Prelude SI VTEC that I'm going to be endurance racing on oval tracks. I'm not really sure what oil I should use in the car. I've been racing other types of cars for years(Ford escorts mostly) and have always used either Mobile 1 or Redline oil, but didn't really do much research when it came to viscosity. Those cars had high miles and I didn't really care if they held up or not. The prelude cost me much more than the escorts did, and the preludes are known to burn oil, and they have VTEC, which relies on oil) so I'd rather take my time and figure out which oil would be the best for the car. I'm not really sure which viscosity oil I should use. And I'm not sure if I should use a dedicated racing oil, or a street oil.

Here's some information that might help:

The factory service manual says to use 10w-30. (This sounds a bit thin for racing to me. But that's just my opinion.)

The engine is a honda H22A1, with 100,000 miles.

It's a race car, so it's going to be abused. (It will be run from 4500-7500 rpm every lap.)

The races are very long. (About 100-150 miles) There are no yellow flags, so the car will either be stopped and idling during red flags, or full throttle during green flags. There is always at least one break in the race to allow for fuel to be added and tires changed, and drivers to get some water and the car is shut off during these breaks.(they are anywhere from 10 minutes to 20 minutes per break.

The races are held year round so the temperature is different each race. Should I run the same viscosity all year round or should I change it when the temperature changes?

I want to use synthetic oil. I'm a fan of Redline oil, but will consider running other brands. (Except Royal Purple. You couldn't pay me to run that stuff.)

I usually change my oil after every other race. Sometimes every three races. (Is this ok? Or should I be changing it after every race?)

Another thing I'd like to know is if the car really needs an oil cooler. It comes with one from the factory, but I normally eliminate them because that's one more thing that can fail and cause the oil to drain out. I've never had any issue after eliminating them on my old cars, but I don't know if I should do it with this car.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Ramblejam]

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Motor_Oil_for_Endurance_Racing.aspx

Take a look here: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 - 1750/1850ppm (Phosphorus/Zinc).

As for the cooler questions, and recommending an oil, we'd need to know your current oil temps/pressure, and what product you're currently using.

 

[tommygunn]

I wouldn't remove the oil cooler.

Redline's oils are actually thicker than their grade names would suggest. That is, Redline's 10w30 is more like a 40.

 

[danthaman1980]

Pennzoil Ultra Euro 5W-40. Good enough for Porsche? Check. Good enough for Ferrari? Check. Should be plenty for you too.

Bonus: you can pick it up at AutoZone

 

[cheesepuffs]

24 Hours of LeMons perhaps? Either way it sounds awesome.

 

[fdcg27]

Welcome to BITOG!
Does the 'lude have an oil cooler or is it a PSF cooler?
PSF coolers are common on Hondas but I've never seen a factory oil cooler on one.
Anyway, if the car does have a factory oil cooler, then Honda thought that the car needed it for street driving, so I'd keep it for track use. If it's an aftermarket install, get rid of it and set it aside in case you want to reinstall it if you see very high oil temps which translates as very low oil presssure.
Oil?
M1 15W-50 would be a solid choice for this use, although M1 0W-40 might work as well.
A real oil pressure gauge would be nice, since it would help you to find out how thick an oil you really need.
You probably don't need M1R, since this Honda doesn't need the additive levels this oil offers.

 

[Clevy]

I'd use redline and in a euro 40 grade flavour.
Or any of the majors euro flavoured oils.
I'm not an m1 fan but their 0w-40 is a world class oil,and cheap. Its a no brainer as far as cost effective.
But I sure do love redline.

 

[CATERHAM]

First welcome to BITOG.

I don't think it matters too much what brand you use in what is a stock engine. What is important is to install a pair of oil temp' and oil pressure gauges so that you can properly monitor things.
With oil gauges your viscosity choice becomes quite straight forward. You want the oil to be heavy enough to maintain 50 psi at 3,000 rpm but not to be so heavy that you're still in by-pass (about 85 psi) at high rev's.
A light 5W-30 should fit that bill. A 40 grade oil will likely be too heavy unless you're seeing very high oil temp's, a good reason to retain the oil cooler if it has one.

Hope this helps.

 

[ovaltrackracer]

Thanks for everyone's input so far!

I am going to be installing an aftermarket mechanical oil pressure and water temperature gauge pack, so that's covered. (I don't think i'll need an oil temp gauge. I've had ones on my old cars and they really didn't tell me much. The water temp gauge is much more useful in my eyes.)

And for the cooler possibly being for power steering, you may be correct. I didn't trace the lines all the way back, but they looked like they were heading for the engine, but they might have been going to the rack and pinion.

And cheesepuffs, it's along the lines of 24 hours of lemons. It's for cheap cars, racing on oval tracks (no road courses) in long races. I don't care to say what track/series I race in right now, as I'm trying to keep my competition in the dark about my switching car brands again. Maybe I'll have to make a thread about it after the first race of the season.

 

[aquariuscsm]

How about a 5W50?

 

[Clevy]

Originally Posted By: ovaltrackracer
Thanks for everyone's input so far!

I am going to be installing an aftermarket mechanical oil pressure and water temperature gauge pack, so that's covered. (I don't think i'll need an oil temp gauge. I've had ones on my old cars and they really didn't tell me much. The water temp gauge is much more useful in my eyes.)

And for the cooler possibly being for power steering, you may be correct. I didn't trace the lines all the way back, but they looked like they were heading for the engine, but they might have been going to the rack and pinion.

And cheesepuffs, it's along the lines of 24 hours of lemons. It's for cheap cars, racing on oval tracks (no road courses) in long races. I don't care to say what track/series I race in right now, as I'm trying to keep my competition in the dark about my switching car brands again. Maybe I'll have to make a thread about it after the first race of the season.



Whoa.
Oil temp is critical to know. Moreso than water temp in my opinion although both are good to know.
When choosing an oil knowing the engines oil temps is very important. That info is needed so a person can know the max temps under load so an oil can be chosen in the right viscosity.
For example lets say you go with a 5w-30. When racing your oil temps reach 300f. At 300f a 30 grade isn't leaving much of a film behind so let's pray the anti-wear and friction modifiers are picking up the slack or we can assume metal on metal is happening. In this case knowing the oil temp is critical right.
Or let's say when racing you are running a steady 280f the entire time. Now we'd take that info and go as thin as possible but as thick as necessary right.
I'm no fan of M1 however their 0w-40 can handle 300f oil temps without breaking a sweat. Or any euro spec long life oil would certainly be suitable. Think autobahn.
Now with that little v-tec you want to go as thin as possible to reduce as much drag as you can,but still be thick enough to handle peak oil temps.
My charger cruises at 213f at 70mph pretty consistently using a 5w-20. This fall I used liqui-moly 0w-40(meets all euro gasoline specs as well a Porsche). An hour later I'm driving down the highway at 70mph and the oil temps peaked at 190f.
Big difference right.
Its critical to know so you can thicken the oil if oil temps go sky high.
Just my 2 bits
I'd rather know oil temp right to the degree so I can fine tune the oils viscositycoolant temps are fine on a gauge girl me. I can see when its climbing into the red.
As thin as possible means less drag and pumps quicker at start up. Less drag means more power for the engine because it requires less to spin the oil pump.
As thick as necessary to maintain an oil film at max oil temps.

 

[Shannow]

Given that it's oval track...AND you get reasonably unpressured pitstops, I think you can ditch an instantaneous oil temperature reading, and with get/borrow an IR temperature guage, and check the sump temperature after a run...could drop the thermocouple from a cheap multimeter down the dipstick tube for a check. Sooner after the run the better.

Running with the Oil pump in relief, I agree is wasting horsepower, as you are just heating oil using engine power. Problem is that the difference between being in bypass and not in bypass is probably equivalent to turning on one headlight...it's there, but you won't feel it.

Given that it's considerable time at heat/load, you presumably own your own pre-time (not a Lemans start at -35F), you don't need to worry about cold cranking etc.

Given that it's used engines, there are other factors like oil consumption, ring seal, etc. that enter the equation. No point running out of oil from the front end of the pack.

If I were in the game, I'd maybe choose something like delo 400 monogrades for a bookend comparison...straight weights have more consistent HTHS than multigrades of different manufacture...and they are available 20, 30, 40...miscible, and same adds.

Do half a race on 40, half a race on 30. See the lap times/consumption on each, then pick how you want to proceed.

Lower times, and enough oil to see through the race, decide to try the next step/half step down/up.

Pick where you are happy, and then try a multigrade that approximates our chosen viscosity. Be prepared for increased consumption 'though.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Given that it's oval track...AND you get reasonably unpressured pitstops, I think you can ditch an instantaneous oil temperature reading, and with get/borrow an IR temperature guage, and check the sump temperature after a run...could drop the thermocouple from a cheap multimeter down the dipstick tube for a check. Sooner after the run the better.

The voice of a non racer.
You want a proper oil temp' gauge, that's the only way to know what maximum oil temp's you're seeing under full throttle conditions on the track. The moment you lift you can see the oil temp's drop start to drop immediately if the oil temp's are well above the normal base line. And after a cool down lap and finally pitting and getting around to measuring your oil temp's with an IR temp' reader, your oil temp's could easily have dropped to normal; not much use in that.

ovaltrackracer makes a good point about just installing an OP gauge. Having both an OP and OT gauge is the ideal set-up but if you had to choose between the two, it's the OP gauge that provides the most info including providing an approximate indication of oil temp's. You'll know when the oil's very hot because your OP is below normal, you just won't know how hot.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
.
If I were in the game, I'd maybe choose something like delo 400 monogrades for a bookend comparison...straight weights have more consistent HTHS than multigrades of different manufacture...and they are available 20, 30, 40...miscible, and same adds.


The last oil you want to use is a low viscosity index heavy monograde oil, it's a recipe for disaster particularly if it's a very cold day at the track and of course no one does for very good reason. In most track events you do not have sufficient time to bring the oil up to temp' before using full power.

If you do need to run a heavier oil as Clevy has suggested, M1 0W-40 is a good choice but only if you need it.
I'm pretty sure a 5W-30 syn' will be more than heavy enough to maintain OP, and if you OP does get close to the minimum spec' I mentioned you can always add some M1 0W-40 to fine tune your viscosity to what you actually need.

 

[Brent_G]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Given that it's oval track...AND you get reasonably unpressured pitstops, I think you can ditch an instantaneous oil temperature reading, and with get/borrow an IR temperature guage, and check the sump temperature after a run...could drop the thermocouple from a cheap multimeter down the dipstick tube for a check. Sooner after the run the better.

The voice of a non racer.
You want a proper oil temp' gauge, that's the only way to know what maximum oil temp's you're seeing under full throttle conditions on the track. The moment you lift you can see the oil temp's drop start to drop immediately if the oil temp's are well above the normal base line. And after a cool down lap and finally pitting and getting around to measuring your oil temp's with an IR temp' reader, your oil temp's could easily have dropped to normal; not much use in that.

ovaltrackracer makes a good point about just installing an OP gauge. Having both an OP and OT gauge is the ideal set-up but if you had to choose between the two, it's the OP gauge that provides the most info including providing an approximate indication of oil temp's. You'll know when the oil's very hot because your OP is below normal, you just won't know how hot.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
.
If I were in the game, I'd maybe choose something like delo 400 monogrades for a bookend comparison...straight weights have more consistent HTHS than multigrades of different manufacture...and they are available 20, 30, 40...miscible, and same adds.


The last oil you want to use is a low viscosity index heavy monograde oil, it's a recipe for disaster particularly if it's a very cold day at the track and of course no one does for very good reason. In most track events you do not have sufficient time to bring the oil up to temp' before using full power.

If you do need to run a heavier oil as Clevy has suggested, M1 0W-40 is a good choice but only if you need it.
I'm pretty sure a 5W-30 syn' will be more than heavy enough to maintain OP, and if you OP does get close to the minimum spec' I mentioned you can always add some M1 0W-40 to fine tune your viscosity to what you actually need.


I completely understand the thin as possible as thick as necessary thing, however in the OP situation I would rather fall on the thick side than thin. He is not shooting for best MPG or -35 cold starts every morning.

The extra weight is not going to cause any harm over a bit extra drag in the oil pump. The extra weight will be beneficial cushion if temps go higher than expected. I would rather be a bit thicker than needed, rather than be a little to thin.

OP i would honestly go with a nice 15w40 HDEO or similar of the brand of your choice. See how the pressure and temps fair with that and go from there.

 

[CATERHAM]

You're missing the point entirely, bit that's okay as most newbies at the track almost always think they need to run an oil that's thicker than specified, sometimes with disastrous consequences. That's right, a ruined engine.
I run a 0W-20 in my track car that's spec'd for a 5W-50 because my oil temp's are well contained and that's the grade that allows me to optimize the oil viscosity and thereby maximize both engine protection and power.

Keep in mind this is a stock Honda engine that could likely maintain sufficient OP at normal operating temp's with a 0W-20 although Honda wasn't specifying the grade back in the '80's.
Even driving flat out at the track should not raise oils temp's dramatically so a 5W-30 should likely provide plenty of viscosity reserve.
If one is not certain about maximum oil temp's, a 30 grade oil is usually the best place to start. It's not too heavy initially at the track and it will take a lot of hard driving during practice to establish if the oil is becoming too light. At which point you pit and make an adjustment. That's what set-up is all about in racing, and not just for "tuning" the viscosity of the engine oil, but everything else.