The show about ID thieves and the Nigerian e-mail scam was hilarious though.
NBC - To Catch a Predator
- Thread starter ryansride2017
- Start date
- Status
I have mixed feelings on these stings to catch child predators. On the one hand, child abuse is VERY under-reported. It can sometimes take many years for such crimes to be exposed, so I can certainly see a need to get these people off the streets before they have an opportunity to offend again, but the whole idea of setting up the opportunity to commit a crime strikes me as slimy. It's almost like law enforcement is perpetuating the problem in a wierd sort of way by ensuring that opportunities to offend are always present. Maybe I'm off base with that, but it seems like there should be a better way.
Whatever the case, I don't exactly feel sorry for those who get caught. Anyone with two working brain cells to put together should know very well that law enforcement patrols chat rooms, news groups, etc. and there's a good chance that "little Joey" is actually "Sargeant Joe Smith".
Whatever the case, I don't exactly feel sorry for those who get caught. Anyone with two working brain cells to put together should know very well that law enforcement patrols chat rooms, news groups, etc. and there's a good chance that "little Joey" is actually "Sargeant Joe Smith".
What they don't show is that Perverted Justice hammers these guys over and over and over to show up. They are relentless. That is left out and will come up in a former NBC Producer's lawsuit.
BTW in the Texas show, 23 of the cases were dismissed. What does that tell you?
BTW in the Texas show, 23 of the cases were dismissed. What does that tell you?
It tells me that in the bigger picture, perhaps law enforcement should be concentrating on crimes that are a little more serious in nature. I get pretty tired of the cops only performing the easiest of the tasks they're assigned. Instead of patrolling the streets looking for the dangerous criminals that are robbing people at gunpoint (and often shooting them), performing home invasions where people are often killed, or other more serious crimes which are just too plentiful to list, they're staked out around a house waiting for some 50 year old perv to show up for sex with a 13 year old who enticed him to drive over there. I'm totally against adults having sex with minors, but this is a little out of hand, not to mention a little contrived. I've been advocating law enforcement reform since within a 3 month period in 2002 my house was burgularized, followed closely by my car getting burgularized, and then finding out that a great deal of manpower at the Dallas Police Department was allocated in the form of undercover officers at the local gay bars making sure that the patrons didn't touch (AT ALL) the guys dancing on boxes for tips. To Catch A Predator rings about the same in my mind as this situation. Anything for TV ratings, and the cops are more than happy to help out with that rather than doing the more difficult parts of their jobs.
Here, cops tend to partake of the goodies before busting those providing them.
And they seem to enjoy tuning poeple up, if not actually shooting them.
And they seem to enjoy tuning poeple up, if not actually shooting them.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I tend to view most things under the premise that "locks keep honest people honest". Most of you understand what I mean here. Now I surely consider myself an honest guy. I'd never take the money out of anyone's dropped wallet ..and would do my best to return it too them. I don't need anyone else's hard earned money ..as much as I could surely use more money. OTOH, if I found a bag of money laying on the road ...with REAL cash ... and I could remain totally anonymous??? That would be a real test of my personal integrity. Knowing me, I'd tell my wife ..and also tell her that I was turning it in ..she too would think of the "what if's" of the situation ..but realize that we would be cursed with the windfall in terms of guilt and the party that would be thrown with ill gotten gain ..and agree with me. We would know that our gain was at someone else's hardship (someone has to be blamed for the loss) ..and that potential for ruining someone else's life is something we could not ignore. It would destroy our self image of being people of inherently goodwill toward all.
..but do I expect everyone to react that way?? No. The temptation was tremendous. I would expect various people to evaluate the risk of discovery ..weigh the liabilities ..and go from there.
Most stings catch suckers. The savvy drug buyers/predators (or whatever) figure this stuff out ahead of time and employ their own form of tests to filter the stingers. They move on to other prospects. It's the naive fool that finds just what he was looking for ..sorta like that bag of money just sitting there in the middle of the street.
So, just so I'm not misunderstood, these predators need to be culled/caught/stopped ..but let us not incite such notions in those who would otherwise keep their personal demons to themselves and surely don't put a profit motive (market share/ratings) behind the actions taken to find these people.
You're looking at the precursors to "Running Man".
Ha..I guess we're different people. While I'd never keep a dropped wallet, if I found a bag of cash in the middle of the road, consider it mine IF nobody saw me grab it. I'd assume that only drug dealers would be in possession of such large amounts of cash, and usually only drug dealers transport cash in such a haphazard manner, so I wouldn't feel bad about keeping it. But..I'd have to be sure nobody saw me take it as that's about the last group of people I'd want knocking on (down) my door.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Drug money? That would probably find its way to my needy pastor friend and he may take a pause or two on it. It would tend to alter my view if it's in a paper bag. What I was referring to, more or less, was a bank deposit bag ..or armored car cash bag that happened to fall out of the truck (it has happened google/wiki Joey Coyle). I've made night deposits at the bank and found the smaller zippered bags hanging in the door. Surely some inexperienced night manager had assumed that it worked like a mail drop box and just drove off not thinking anything about it. Who knows how much money was in the bag? It would have been a slam dunk for me to take it.
Oh, yeah..that's different. Doing my part to cripple the illegal drug running would be my pleasure..but I wouldn't want to cost someone his job.
While I don't exactly appreciate the techniques, as someone who works in the child welfare industry it seems valuable to get predators off the streets. I deal with sexually abused kids every day and the stories are awful. Even worse, I witness these "people" getting let go because of technicalities. Ever supervise a visit between a little girl and her abuser. Makes you a little less sensitive to the rights of these men- and statistically, it is most frequently men.
ref
ref
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
I hear you. One of the female students at the residential treatment facilty I worked at came from Trenton State Hosp. She was totally out there in her sexual activity. Others from NJSH said that her uncle visited her and would engage with her in the visiting area. No one knew where the behavior was coming from.
Isn't the child comitting a crime by offering or suggesting underage sex?
I have to say that your statement was rather offensive to me. Children who have been sexual abused have incredibly poor boundaries. I have worked with some kids whose whole family was sexually active. For them, sex was just a part of "love" or "relationships." They would easily present the offer of sexual behaviors to anyone. Do we fault them? How about the children who have been exposed to sexual material? They have the same issues with boundaries. I would be willing to bet that any 13yo girl who is offering sex has a poor history regarding their family and boundaries. I would fault the parents and adults in these girls lives much sooner than I would the girls themselves. Parents, please teach your children boundaries and hold them to them!
ref
ref
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Well, don't read any further into Auto-Union's statement than you have to. I'd say that he's correct, but there is surely no accountability with someone below the age of consent. They didn't end up that way formed out of some vacuum. There had to be some unconventional influence to make them that outgoing sexually.
Although it's hard for many men to grasp the concept, early sexual orientation can be permanently altering ...even for males. Males don't feel victimized ..but, typically neither do the females. Females tend to be more exposed to the realization of victimhood. That is, there's much more protection afforded them in society's eye.
Once a young person enters into an intense physical relationship, it forever (typically) alters how they perceive interpersonal relationships. There is no longer any "normal" to it.
Although it's hard for many men to grasp the concept, early sexual orientation can be permanently altering ...even for males. Males don't feel victimized ..but, typically neither do the females. Females tend to be more exposed to the realization of victimhood. That is, there's much more protection afforded them in society's eye.
Once a young person enters into an intense physical relationship, it forever (typically) alters how they perceive interpersonal relationships. There is no longer any "normal" to it.
Quote:
Once a young person enters into an intense physical relationship, it forever (typically) alters how they perceive interpersonal relationships. There is no longer any "normal" to it.
I don't think anyone would question the negative effects of actual physical or emotional force in coerced sexual activity, but kudos for recognizing that young people can actually have "intense physical relationships." I think the concept of "normal" when it comes to intimate relationships (with young people or old) is not a fixed canon, i.e, what's "normal" for one person won't be perceived as "normal" for another. As with most other aspects of self conception, a lot of the emotional scaring comes from how the "victim" alters their perception of the relationship based on how those around them perceive it.
Auto Union asked a question. Are you so sensitive someone can't ask a question? So much for discussions.
And the "technicalities" you mentioned in your earlier post..do you mean someones rights or the law?
G-Man's last sentence in his post truly has weight.
And the "technicalities" you mentioned in your earlier post..do you mean someones rights or the law?
G-Man's last sentence in his post truly has weight.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Quote:
Quote:
Once a young person enters into an intense physical relationship, it forever (typically) alters how they perceive interpersonal relationships. There is no longer any "normal" to it.
I don't think anyone would question the negative effects of actual physical or emotional force in coerced sexual activity, but kudos for recognizing that young people can actually have "intense physical relationships."
Absolutely. There are no limits, in terms of capacity/breadth/depth, for intimate relationships ...young or old. One has to sensibly assure that there is some emotional maturity involved. Enough to handle it without undue stress or anxiety. If a person is happy, cared for/about, and engaging in any activity ..there's no "bad" to it ..at least inherently.
This too can be true. There's a social mandate to turn any young girl who's having sex with an older guy that insists she's being exploited and "victimized". She usually doesn't feel this is the case ..at least initially. There's no inherent abuse just due to age differences. Wasn't there a 16 year old that served in the Marines for two years, married a 20-something year old and had house and two kids featured in the news during the Vietnam War??
We had two cases show up locally. One involved a man who became involved with his next door neighbor's daughter. The other was a female staff member at a Franciscan boys school (sorta a reform school). The man had a 3 year relationship with the girl. She never complained and was otherwise healthy in the community. Good grades ..favorable peer relationships ..etc..etc. The guy got 2.5 years in a guilty plea ...etc..etc..etc. I imagine the biggest trauma to her was having the relationship end.
The female staff, OTOH, took random males to hotel rooms or parked with them in cars. Naturally, the boys, having the time of their lives, blabbed all around and she got caught. She got probation and a small fine. I also imagine that the biggest trauma to the boys was that the relationship ended ...but for vastly different reasons.
Now I don't perceive the man as "predatory" ..per se~. It wasn't like he was scanning the park for 12 year olds to satisfy some warped desire (the girl was below the age of consent at the onset of the relationship). It was, more or less, an unwise relationship to cultivate and explore. There is nothing but cultural (actually "modern" cultural) and statutory assumptions of abuse. There doesn't necessarily have to be some disingenuous or deleterious component to it.
That all being qualified (probably not good enough), when I worked with youth, we were compelled to suppress their sexual activities. None of it, for the most part, was abnormal (or rather uncommon) when compared to my teen years. The thing that I looked for, when standing in forced judgment of these activities, was whether it had a relationship component to it that was otherwise healthy. Now some girl (the one from NJSH) who would be doing something in the nearest closet she could find (lawn, seat, whatever) ..not healthy. OTOH, two kids who hung out together, studied together ..went to all the social activities together ...treated each other nice ..etc..etc ..healthy.
I was just parlaying how I felt. Not meant to attack or prevent discussion. Just an open and honest position of my feelings. That is why I said that I was rather offended. Of course I am sensitive to this topic- it is a part of my daily life. Technicalities- well, in one case I can think of, the DA did not have enough evidence to collect DNA samples from the family. Apparently, simply having semen does not give them the right to DNA test the men who lived in the home. It was enough to remove the child and because mom was not giving any help, terminate rights, but not enough to convict. Whoever it was, he is still free unless he got caught with someone else. The little girl was 3yo at the time.
ref
ref
Auto-Union: "Isn't the child committing a crime by offering or suggesting underage sex?"
Gary Allan: "Females tend to be more exposed to the realization of victimhood. That is, there's much more protection afforded them in society's eye."
Here's something to torque off almost everybody here:
Eight-year-old Utah boy charged with lewd conduct
Notice that the male is considered automatically at fault, even when he's eight years old. Reminds me of when one of my brother's female classmates in first grade told him to repeat the F-word after her—which he was not familiar with, as those were simpler times and that language was not in use at home. When he did in innocence, the girl told on him for saying the word and got him in trouble.
And that leads to two comments. 1. Most children today have been heavily exposed to what used to be considered inappropriate material, and often they know that they can get an unliked adult in trouble by making false sexual abuse allegations. They might not realize the ramifications, but they know they can get back at someone by falsely claiming rape. 2. Despite whatever recent polls may claim, a great many of today's children are sexually active by age 16, sometimes with an adult, but usually with others around their age. They obviously won't admit this to an adult pollster, though, as they know it's frowned upon.
Because of all this voluntary sexual activity by minors, statutory rape and predator laws aimed at child molesters can be enforced only in a spotty way, often unfair to defendants. The Dateline NBC series is one such example, as for constitutional reasons law enforcement should run the sting, not third parties. Look for more of these "cases" to be thrown out.
Gary Allan: "Females tend to be more exposed to the realization of victimhood. That is, there's much more protection afforded them in society's eye."
Here's something to torque off almost everybody here:
Eight-year-old Utah boy charged with lewd conduct
Notice that the male is considered automatically at fault, even when he's eight years old. Reminds me of when one of my brother's female classmates in first grade told him to repeat the F-word after her—which he was not familiar with, as those were simpler times and that language was not in use at home. When he did in innocence, the girl told on him for saying the word and got him in trouble.
And that leads to two comments. 1. Most children today have been heavily exposed to what used to be considered inappropriate material, and often they know that they can get an unliked adult in trouble by making false sexual abuse allegations. They might not realize the ramifications, but they know they can get back at someone by falsely claiming rape. 2. Despite whatever recent polls may claim, a great many of today's children are sexually active by age 16, sometimes with an adult, but usually with others around their age. They obviously won't admit this to an adult pollster, though, as they know it's frowned upon.
Because of all this voluntary sexual activity by minors, statutory rape and predator laws aimed at child molesters can be enforced only in a spotty way, often unfair to defendants. The Dateline NBC series is one such example, as for constitutional reasons law enforcement should run the sting, not third parties. Look for more of these "cases" to be thrown out.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
We do have many apparent conflicts in our devolution as a society. While being far more permissive in our allowances of expression, we're also becoming more authoritarian and punitive in the sensible outcomes of the increased violations that occur. There's a message in there somewhere and I like to term it as throwing out gasoline and handing out matches ..while you sit there and say "people who play with fire tend to get burned".
It's just a wise personal policy to CYA with any young person. That youngster may be the emotionally needy daughter of my neighbor who I watched grow up from a 2 year old in a home where they were thrown to the street during the summer to fend for their own..all through the bicycles and the whole shabang ..watching her mother walk over to talk to me as I checked my oil in her tee shirt in full glory of a cool morning ..advertising on the spot market. Seeing that young girl turn into a woman and desiring a way out of the box she felt that she was in in terms of emotional worth. Some people are going to seek what they think love is ..by any means they have at their disposal. This wasn't even an underage thing where legal issues would be involved ...but I made sure that I never alone with the girl ..ESPECIALLY because of how close we were in my para-parental role that I had served as over a good part of her adolescence. We, more or less, fostered this girl for a decent amount of time (she went on vacations with us ..etc.). You have to be very careful if you're going to stand too close to flames that WILL emerge in the exploration evolutions.
I'm not made of stone ..so I never allowed that situation to progress to the point where I'd be tested. This is just good common sense. Well, let's say it's good common sense for anyone who has seen this stuff in an institutional/residential setting (that would include public/private schools ..the YMCA..etc.).
Like Miyagi say: "Best defense is no be there".
We're dodging bullets all the time. From the mother advertising ..to her daughter later on. No one said that it was easy. I'm as much a man as any other jerk, but I've seen how others, with no ill intent and of otherwise (what is commonly termed) "good character" can have some real life altering experiences for some unwise choices.
It's just a wise personal policy to CYA with any young person. That youngster may be the emotionally needy daughter of my neighbor who I watched grow up from a 2 year old in a home where they were thrown to the street during the summer to fend for their own..all through the bicycles and the whole shabang ..watching her mother walk over to talk to me as I checked my oil in her tee shirt in full glory of a cool morning ..advertising on the spot market. Seeing that young girl turn into a woman and desiring a way out of the box she felt that she was in in terms of emotional worth. Some people are going to seek what they think love is ..by any means they have at their disposal. This wasn't even an underage thing where legal issues would be involved ...but I made sure that I never alone with the girl ..ESPECIALLY because of how close we were in my para-parental role that I had served as over a good part of her adolescence. We, more or less, fostered this girl for a decent amount of time (she went on vacations with us ..etc.). You have to be very careful if you're going to stand too close to flames that WILL emerge in the exploration evolutions.
I'm not made of stone ..so I never allowed that situation to progress to the point where I'd be tested. This is just good common sense. Well, let's say it's good common sense for anyone who has seen this stuff in an institutional/residential setting (that would include public/private schools ..the YMCA..etc.).
Like Miyagi say: "Best defense is no be there".
We're dodging bullets all the time. From the mother advertising ..to her daughter later on. No one said that it was easy. I'm as much a man as any other jerk, but I've seen how others, with no ill intent and of otherwise (what is commonly termed) "good character" can have some real life altering experiences for some unwise choices.
- Status
