My conversation with Roy Howell-REDLINE

[buster]

I called RL in the past and spoke to Dave Granquest about RL's UOA to get his opinion. I posted his response before on BITOG about how UOA's are not a good measure of comparing oils. Well, I wasn't happy with that response bc I don't agree with him and I felt he didn't really answer the question.

So yesterday, I called and spoke with Ivan(EEVAN

), the receptionist/gatekeeper and told her I spoke with Dave but he really didn't have an answer and if I could speak with someone else, preferably a chemist. Well, she said I could call back and talk to Roy Howell in a few hrs. (west coast time)....so I did.

To start, he is a nice guy. I told him how we see Pb elevated and sometimes other wear metals a bit higher then other oils. I told him about the POE theory scavaging metals in all the surfaces of the engine, as RL is laying down it's protective layer. He said he wasn't aware of Fe being higher but that Pb initially will be but should subside. He said the chemistry can actually take a smaller layer off or something to that effect. What bothered me though is that he didn't quite no EXACTLY why this was happening. He said it could be the Moly (Al

) reacting with it or something else but didn't really specify. He did say it wasn't anything to be alarmed about.

He brought up Amsoil. He said back in the day, they were di-ester, which I knew already bc of BITOG and that the Amsoil dealers would all go around bragging how Amsoil was a true synthetic and M1 was PAO. Well now Amsoil is PAO...you get the picture. He then told me about the Test they ran on Amsoil awhile back. (posted already). I personally didn't like the test he ran but his point to me was that you can pick from numerous tests, and make ANY oil look bad if you try hard enough. He told me that they didn't want to get into a contest with Amsoil and go down that road.

So, I'm surprised I actually talked to him personally and surprised at the detail he got into. He was very nice about it. The only problem I have after talking to him,is him not knowing EXACTLY why Pb is high. He said he never noticed any corrosion or thought it was corrosion. I'm not convinced entirely that it does come down in time as we have seen people run 3 or 4 consecutive runs with RL and it still remains high. Terry could confirm this. As much as I dislike Amsoil's marketing at times, they do get a tremendous amount of feedback from UOA's from their customers sending samples to their Lab. This data is very valuable. So did my persistance pay off? Yes/No, he did confirm that Pb is high initially but couldn't give me a scientific explanation why. Molekule's theory is best IMO. Never did I expect Ivan to let me speak wit Roy Howell.

I've read somewhere that RL's racing oils are basicially the same as their street oils less detergants. With so many variouls metals being used in todays engines, it does make you wonder if their chemistry just isn't right for extended drains in all types of vehicles. If you pounding the shiite out of your car, I'd feel more safe with RL. Thats where it stands now....

[ April 10, 2004, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]

 

[pscholte]

You know, buster, I know Terry likes this oil and I know racers use it, but, given the UOAs I have seen, I just can't get excited about it. I realize some people will tell you, UOAs are not a "discriminator" you should use in picking an oil, but until something better, applied by "real people" like you and me, not corporate testers with product to promote, comes along...(even being the GC guy that I am, I can't stand the Castrol "test" commercials)

 

[MolaKule]

Actually, I believe it was Terry Dyson who first presented the "scavenger" theory here on BITOG.

I had been running Redline in test engines for some time and noticed UOA's with elevated soft wear metals, but could never detect actual wear with a micrometer in Kohler engine cylinders, cams, and bearings.

So my theory was that the high polarity esters must be replacing already loose metals and molecule thick metal films with the ester molecules.

Scavenging seemed like a proper description for what was happenning.

 

[pscholte]

...and so over time that would not be viewed as a concern, correct?...TNX M

 

[Last_Z]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
Actually, I believe it was Terry Dyson who first presented the "scavenger" theory here on BITOG.

I had been running Redline in test engines for some time and noticed UOA's with elevated soft wear metals, but could never detect actual wear with a micrometer in Kohler engine cylinders, cams, and bearings.

So my theory was that the high polarity esters must be replacing already loose metals and molecule thick metal films with the ester molecules.

Scavenging seemed like a proper description for what was happenning.

---

Would this be the same as Amsoil's "micro polishing" system?....or is it Royal Purple?

 

[pscholte]

Buster,

Thanks for the update. The more results you have from interaction like yours, even if you don't get ALL the answers you were looking for in that particular conversation, the more "pieces" you can eventually put together to get a pretty accurate overall picture. This is valuable. Again, thanks.

 

[buster]

Thanks pscholte. Roy is a nice guy and I thought it was nice of him to take the time to chat. Obvioulsy he can't get into extreme formulation detail, but he did say some things that were interesting. Redline remains a mystery to me. I personally believe in Molekule's theory, which is the POE/scavanger theory. Roy did say the Molybdenum could have something to do with it. It's really hard to say at this point.

Redline is a very small market oil and their success comes on the drag racing world, although their street oils have success in many road racing teams. I don't have the experience in racing or chemical background to really take my own stance on the issue, other then from what I take from here which is a mixed bag. TBN depletion, high levels of Pb and sometimes Iron are issues with this oil. Then there are even theories that ester based oil show higher levels of corrosion. So we are just stuck with "theories" at this point.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Enter Redline high polyol ester oils. The ester molecule, being highly polar, wants to get to the surface and deposit it's own molecular layer. In doing so, it displaces the metal molecules and places them into solution, so the UOA is seeing scavenged metal molecules. So instead of wear metal molecules sticking to surfaces, they are displaced or placed into solution.

---

 

[ekpolk]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Last_Z:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MolaKule:
Actually, I believe it was Terry Dyson who first presented the "scavenger" theory here on BITOG.

I had been running Redline in test engines for some time and noticed UOA's with elevated soft wear metals, but could never detect actual wear with a micrometer in Kohler engine cylinders, cams, and bearings.

So my theory was that the high polarity esters must be replacing already loose metals and molecule thick metal films with the ester molecules.

Scavenging seemed like a proper description for what was happenning.

---

Would this be the same as Amsoil's "micro polishing" system?....or is it Royal Purple?

---

That would be PR with Synerlec. . . Maybe the proper course is simply to choose the oil with the most impressive slogan package. Of course, then everyone will argue about which slogans are more impressive.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
Maybe the proper course is simply to choose the oil with the most impressive slogan package. Of course, then everyone will argue about which slogans are more impressive.

---

Well, ek..., if we are going to go down that path I'm holding out for Castrol's assertion in the 60s that GTX contained "liquid tungsten."

Break Break...Terry Dyson could make this all so easy for us if he would just tell us he REALLY doesn't like RL...much as I love GC I can't dismiss the fact that he is so positive about this oil!

[ April 11, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: pscholte ]

 

[oilyriser]

proposed experiment:

Take a length of plumbing solder made of 50% tin,
50% lead, soak a length of it in Redline, and
another piece in Mobil 1 for 100 hours. Do
analysis to see if any has dissolved in the oil.
It might need to be heated, for the effect to
occur.

 

[buster]

Terry still stands by Redline as the best oil.

I'd like to try that experiment.

My take on RL as of now is that it's a great oil for racing. It has high amounts of ZDP and a ton of Moly. Roy couldn't specify if the Moly had something to do with the bearing wear. To me, this is disturbing. However, the scavenger theory does make sense and if these levels stabilize, I wouldn't worry about it.

Redline's success comes from the racing crowd. Not so sure their oils are really built for extended drains as well as an Amsoil or Mobil 1. TBN seems to drop very fast with RL. Maybe 3MP's test will shed some light on RL's long drain ability. Although by that time the engine will be so worn in so wear metals should be very low regardless.

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

quote:

---

Originally posted by pscholte:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ekpolk:
Maybe the proper course is simply to choose the oil with the most impressive slogan package. Of course, then everyone will argue about which slogans are more impressive.

---

Well, ek..., if we are going to go down that path I'm holding out for Castrol's assertion in the 60s that GTX contained "liquid tungsten."

Break Break...Terry Dyson could make this all so easy for us if he would just tell us he REALLY doesn't like RL...much as I love GC I can't dismiss the fact that he is so positive about this oil!

---

Terry has changed all his vehicles over to Redline, thats good enough for me, I'd take that over a UOA any day of the week.

 

[pscholte]

You'd take a THCAHVOTRL over a UOA?

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:
Terry still stands by Redline as the best oil.

I'd like to try that experiment.

My take on RL as of now is that it's a great oil for racing. It has high amounts of ZDP and a ton of Moly. Roy couldn't specify if the Moly had something to do with the bearing wear. To me, this is disturbing. However, the scavenger theory does make sense and if these levels stabilize, I wouldn't worry about it.

Redline's success comes from the racing crowd. Not so sure their oils are really built for extended drains as well as an Amsoil or Mobil 1. TBN seems to drop very fast with RL. Maybe 3MP's test will shed some light on RL's long drain ability. Although by that time the engine will be so worn in so wear metals should be very low regardless.

---

The reason Howell and Dave and anyone else down at Redline have no answer to the elevated soft metals in UOA's is likely because they dont rely on UOA's for their testing. In the racing world you use an oil and then tear the motor apart and inspect critical parts. That is how the know if an oil is doing its job or not. They likely spend time measuring all of the wear metal from an engine during testing (forget the name of that process) , rather than using UOA data. I bet if you ask any race team that uses Redline about elevated soft metals in UOA's they wont know what you are talking about either, because they are using more direct methods of measuring wear.

Lastly Redline is not touted as a long drain fluid, Dave at Redline will always tell you to follow the manufacturers recommended drain interval with their fluid, they wont push for longer drains. Most other oil companies wont either other than Amsoil.

Joey

 

[buster]

Idrinkmotoroil, that is a very good point and I completely agree. That is why Dave was refering to UOA's as being used for trucking fleets, not to measure wear.

Complete tear downs and visual inspections are the only way to really judge how well an oil is protecting.

 

[rob-the-oil-nut]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:

Originally posted by buster:
[qb] Lastly Redline is not touted as a long drain fluid, Dave at Redline will always tell you to follow the manufacturers recommended drain interval with their fluid, they wont push for longer drains. Joey

---

Beg to differ, brother. I used RedLine for 11 months / 14,000 km and it blew away some plain dino I had in for under 1 month / 1000 km. Same (expensive) tests. I now plan to have RedLine in my off-warranty 3800 Series II for extended drain, but then again, it isn't even in the engine yet.
In addition, http://www.redlineoil.com/tech_faq.asp states
"How long can I run Red Line Oil in my car?
You could go as long as 15,000 to 18,000 miles between drain intervals." Of course that's off-warranty with UOA's, and who drives 18,000 miles in a passenger car in under a year, and all that.
But, I for one spent hundreds of dollars satisfying myself that RedLine was miraculously good stuff. I could have got an oil change a week for some of the money-efforts I was making, as my friends keep telling me. I'll be doing another series of tests on this engine (car has 120,000 km and engine was swapped and has maybe 1/4 of that) starting with non-Redline UOA's (I tried GC over the winter). As I posted, I'll be getting a new pan and adding a by-pass, then marking the date & mileage. I expect to be walking tall a year later and posting the data. In the meantime if you want, maybe ask an Admin for help looking up what I posted more than a year ago. I drained it after only 11 months because that's when I had the by-pass installed. In fact the dino that was in had the unfair advantage of the by-pass, whereas the RedLine did not.
I was also teased by one mechanic in particular, that poked fun at my once-a-year oil change mentality and RedLine obsession. One day my old car got towed in with maybe 1/4 cup manual trans fluid in it. His opinion was that had it been any fluid he had ever seen, I'd need a new tranny. But I didn't. Thus my rant as to how great RedLine is. I apologize if I seem suspiciously pro-RedLine. BTW I have not spoken to Dave in over a year; Mr Howell ever, and Terry ever. I have had recent e-contact with Terry and I like him, but I assure you that I and the lab came to jaw-droppingly positive conclusions about RedLine before I ever heard of him.
Happy Easter, and I'll have an update around Easter of 2005 as to how good RedLine is for extended drains.
THANKS!
Rob-the-oil-nut

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:

Terry has changed all his vehicles over to Redline, thats good enough for me, I'd take that over a UOA any day of the week.

---

I know Terry is running GC in at least one of his vehicles actually.

 

[pscholte]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:

Terry has changed all his vehicles over to Redline, thats good enough for me, I'd take that over a UOA any day of the week.

---

I know Terry is running GC in at least one of his vehicles actually.

---

Pat...WHOA...SHHHH...you'll start another run on the stuff...why, they will be calling it the "Great Greenrush of aught four."

 

[Bror Jace]

While I'm still a strong proponent of using Red Line's products in gearboxes as well as their excellent SI-1 fuel system cleaner in gas tanks, I have my doubts as to its cost-effectiveness in street-driven engines.

In some engines, particularly Hondas, the stuff seems to show a lot of lead. I challenge any to find a really good UOA of Red Line in a Honda or Acura.

I think it also comes down to the composition (material) of the bearings themselves. Some seem to react more poorly with Red Line's chemistry.

I am running the last of my Red Line 5W30 in a 2003 Sentra SE-R SpecV and will post a UOA in a few weeks from now. Piopio ran Red Line in his same Nissan 2.5L engine and the results (posted here) looked great. The greatest wear metal concentration was 5PPM after 5,000 miles, if my memory is correct. So, Red Line seems to get along well with Nissans.

As for long drains, this is just not the forte of this oil. PAOs seem more stable over time.

In short, it seems Red Line is best left to extreme applications where other oils simply won't hold up. For moderately driven street machines, there are usually better choices.

Once I'm through with the Red Line 5W30 (it'll have a little over 5K miles on it) I'm going to use Schaeffer Supreme 5W30 and I'm betting it will show better wear over a similar interval ... even when you figure the milder weather into the equation.

--- Bror Jace