california gas is different, we use ethanol...which generates less thermal power and so you will see a dip in power...
same with summer gas vs winter gas...winter gas is crappier.
same with summer gas vs winter gas...winter gas is crappier.
MPG of gasoline brands
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Quote from Beanoil
"Soupnazzi, you can't make a blanket statement about Shell and oxygenates. It will depend upon where that fuel is sold, and if it even came from a Shell depot. Shell may have a vendor in your area, but no refinery close enough to supply fuel. They will buy, or trade fuel with whoever, so that they can have a brand presence in your town, same as Mobil will do in another area. "
This was info passed on to me, I'll go hit the guy, and tell him off.
lol..
In Canada, so far my Suby likes Esso and Shell. Bad performance and mileage from Petro Canada, Sunoco and Pioneer. I haven't tried Ultramar..
"Soupnazzi, you can't make a blanket statement about Shell and oxygenates. It will depend upon where that fuel is sold, and if it even came from a Shell depot. Shell may have a vendor in your area, but no refinery close enough to supply fuel. They will buy, or trade fuel with whoever, so that they can have a brand presence in your town, same as Mobil will do in another area. "
This was info passed on to me, I'll go hit the guy, and tell him off.
In Canada, so far my Suby likes Esso and Shell. Bad performance and mileage from Petro Canada, Sunoco and Pioneer. I haven't tried Ultramar..
MNgopher
Member # 375 posted December 08, 2005 10:45 PM
"Gas is Gas the same as oil is oil.
For all the arguing we do on this board about minute differences in motor oils that all supposedly meet and exceed a minimum spec, I find it amusing we then throw all that out when talking gasoline, which again must meet a minimum speecification."
Arguing makes the world go around. We are all set in our ways and try to prove our points to each other. It's part of the forum fun.
Carry on and be merry
Member # 375 posted December 08, 2005 10:45 PM
"Gas is Gas the same as oil is oil.
For all the arguing we do on this board about minute differences in motor oils that all supposedly meet and exceed a minimum spec, I find it amusing we then throw all that out when talking gasoline, which again must meet a minimum speecification."
Arguing makes the world go around. We are all set in our ways and try to prove our points to each other. It's part of the forum fun.
Carry on and be merry
Who's merry?
(sorry couldn't resist)
(sorry couldn't resist)
Gas is Gas the same as oil is oil.
For all the arguing we do on this board about minute differences in motor oils that all supposedly meet and exceed a minimum spec, I find it amusing we then throw all that out when talking gasoline, which again must meet a minimum speecification.
Depending on your gasoline market, there may actually be differnces in the gasoline product sold, as it may come from a different refining source. Gasoline formulations vary based on the crude source and refiner, although they all are supposed to meet the same minimum spec. For example, in our market, three refiners supply the bulk of the gasoline and testing of the gasoline shows distinct formulation differences. Some of it can easily be separated out by brand as the refiner and retailer are linked. Others are a crapshoot.
Short story: get to know your local fuel supply situation, and work from there...
For all the arguing we do on this board about minute differences in motor oils that all supposedly meet and exceed a minimum spec, I find it amusing we then throw all that out when talking gasoline, which again must meet a minimum speecification.
Depending on your gasoline market, there may actually be differnces in the gasoline product sold, as it may come from a different refining source. Gasoline formulations vary based on the crude source and refiner, although they all are supposed to meet the same minimum spec. For example, in our market, three refiners supply the bulk of the gasoline and testing of the gasoline shows distinct formulation differences. Some of it can easily be separated out by brand as the refiner and retailer are linked. Others are a crapshoot.
Short story: get to know your local fuel supply situation, and work from there...
Gas is gas? Ok. I can buy that...up to a point. And yes, I am aware that Brand "X," "Y," and "Z" tanker trucks all fill up at the same terminal from whomever's refinery is the closest or the cheapest on any given day. Gas is gas, and all the same at THAT particular refinery for that particular crude oil run. And, yup...at the very end of their tanking up an additive package is usually/supposed to be added to their tanks, and yeah, no doubt sometimes stuff doesn't get added at all or in some wrong amounts. etc., and so on.
That having been said, check out Chevron.com and toptiergas.com about gasoline and gasoline additives. Then ask yourself why BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota would give a red rat's rump about the gas you put in your car?! I know! It's all one big giant conspiracy among the biggies to maximize profits for the companies that make the top tier gas and the car companies! OR maybe these two sites have something...like knowing that when the EPA set the "minimum" detergency standards for the US gasoline market many companies that exceeded that minimum reduced their additive packages to cut costs. Maybe a lot of major brand gas is crappie?
Maybe, just maybe BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota got tired of catching the rap for drivability and warranty repairs for the Pi** poor gas we've ended up with, and decided to through their support to the fuel producers who would put some real stuff in their fuels. The EPA described only a minimum level of additives,which is what just about all government bodies do is to set minimums. (For those who are willing to accept government minimums, let alone this one for fuel, please send me the balance of your paychecks above the minimum wage, so that we can level out the argument.) No doubt these automakers have their own reasons and motives to promote top tier gasolines, and maybe this is one time that I can benefit directly from that too. This top tier gasoline issue has been going on for a few years now...and guess what? Only a handful of gasoline producers have jumped on that bandwagon. I wonder if they know and think that we don't know there is a difference, or even care if there is? After all, if their just meet-the-minimum detergency gas fouls your injectors how are you going to prove it? Would we even suspect that what we pump into our fuel tank could be causing some problems?
I've never been more amazed than with friends and relatives that will pay 50K+ for their latest hot wheels car and then fill up with the cheapest no-name, stale gas they can find...and then have issues with fuel injectors, etc., and then blame the car! Go figure! The cost difference around here (where we have tons of refineries all up and down the MS. River) between El Cheapo gas, and a top tier fuel like Chevron, Shell, etc., is pennies per gallon, or from less than $1 to $1.50 per tankfull on average. Money is money too. And like the guy said: "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later, but you WILL pay me!" IMO, this is another perspective. Your milage will vary.
That having been said, check out Chevron.com and toptiergas.com about gasoline and gasoline additives. Then ask yourself why BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota would give a red rat's rump about the gas you put in your car?! I know! It's all one big giant conspiracy among the biggies to maximize profits for the companies that make the top tier gas and the car companies! OR maybe these two sites have something...like knowing that when the EPA set the "minimum" detergency standards for the US gasoline market many companies that exceeded that minimum reduced their additive packages to cut costs. Maybe a lot of major brand gas is crappie?
Maybe, just maybe BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota got tired of catching the rap for drivability and warranty repairs for the Pi** poor gas we've ended up with, and decided to through their support to the fuel producers who would put some real stuff in their fuels. The EPA described only a minimum level of additives,which is what just about all government bodies do is to set minimums. (For those who are willing to accept government minimums, let alone this one for fuel, please send me the balance of your paychecks above the minimum wage, so that we can level out the argument.) No doubt these automakers have their own reasons and motives to promote top tier gasolines, and maybe this is one time that I can benefit directly from that too. This top tier gasoline issue has been going on for a few years now...and guess what? Only a handful of gasoline producers have jumped on that bandwagon. I wonder if they know and think that we don't know there is a difference, or even care if there is? After all, if their just meet-the-minimum detergency gas fouls your injectors how are you going to prove it? Would we even suspect that what we pump into our fuel tank could be causing some problems?
I've never been more amazed than with friends and relatives that will pay 50K+ for their latest hot wheels car and then fill up with the cheapest no-name, stale gas they can find...and then have issues with fuel injectors, etc., and then blame the car! Go figure! The cost difference around here (where we have tons of refineries all up and down the MS. River) between El Cheapo gas, and a top tier fuel like Chevron, Shell, etc., is pennies per gallon, or from less than $1 to $1.50 per tankfull on average. Money is money too. And like the guy said: "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later, but you WILL pay me!" IMO, this is another perspective. Your milage will vary.
OK here is a question...who supplies Sam's Club or Stop and Shop etc with their gas? In othere words...warehouse stores or supermarkets with their gas?
There are great differences in oils.
Gas comes out of the same refinery to different end retailers [with a few proprietary additives]. Amoco BP has their own source.
There is no chemical difference to cause a MPG difference. Many other factors could cause results to vary.
Gas comes out of the same refinery to different end retailers [with a few proprietary additives]. Amoco BP has their own source.
There is no chemical difference to cause a MPG difference. Many other factors could cause results to vary.
"OK here is a question...who supplies Sam's Club or Stop and Shop etc with their gas? In othere words...warehouse stores or supermarkets with their gas?"
I think that, in the case of Sam's Club and others, it depends on where the club or store is located in relationship to a refinery or a pipeline terminal. Also, that would depend on which oil companies refine in a geographic area, and/or what oil companies they re-sell gasoline to via the pipelines.
As a sidenote, a few years back, one of the Sam's Clubs here in the greater New Orleans area installed ground tanks and started selling gasoline that was bought wholesale directly from a nearby Shell Refinery. I understand from the store manager at the time, that even selling at 15 to 20 cents less per gallon than the local gas stations that they still made a very nice profit. I was told that because they so greatly under-priced their gasoline on the local market that they had numerous complaints launched with the state, and Shell Oil. I think the charge with the state was "product dumping" as a loss leader, which apparently you can't do with gasoline in LA.) Also, I was told that threats from these competitors were made, which included that they would stop doing business with the club, unless the club brought its prices into line. So, very quickly they caved in and had to increase their prices and take an even larger profit. It sure was nice, for as long as it lasted, and it was Shell gasoline too!
I think that, in the case of Sam's Club and others, it depends on where the club or store is located in relationship to a refinery or a pipeline terminal. Also, that would depend on which oil companies refine in a geographic area, and/or what oil companies they re-sell gasoline to via the pipelines.
As a sidenote, a few years back, one of the Sam's Clubs here in the greater New Orleans area installed ground tanks and started selling gasoline that was bought wholesale directly from a nearby Shell Refinery. I understand from the store manager at the time, that even selling at 15 to 20 cents less per gallon than the local gas stations that they still made a very nice profit. I was told that because they so greatly under-priced their gasoline on the local market that they had numerous complaints launched with the state, and Shell Oil. I think the charge with the state was "product dumping" as a loss leader, which apparently you can't do with gasoline in LA.) Also, I was told that threats from these competitors were made, which included that they would stop doing business with the club, unless the club brought its prices into line. So, very quickly they caved in and had to increase their prices and take an even larger profit. It sure was nice, for as long as it lasted, and it was Shell gasoline too!
It's all pure speculation based on a marketing gimmick called TopTierGas.
The way it sounds is that Chevron, Shell, Conoco etc have found a clever way to extract some extra profit from some customers and managed to make them feel good about that in the process.
So what about Quik trip? It is and has been listed on the Top Tier gas site since early on, yet they don't seem to charge exhorbitant prices the name brands sometimes do ( definatley varies by station, same brand stations 2-3 miles apart can have a 10 cent difference in price on same grade.)
"There are great differences in oils.
Gas comes out of the same refinery to different end retailers [with a few proprietary additives]. Amoco BP has their own source.
There is no chemical difference to cause a MPG difference. Many other factors could cause results to vary."
It has been stated many times by people that haul from the distribution points, yes it is the same refined product, but additives are put in at distribution points, not at the refinery. Each brand will have their own additive tereatments and rates added at the tanker. Most distribution points are a pipeline, same pipe is used to ship unleaded as diesel as premium as maybe Jet fuel . The beginning of each shipment through line will have some residuals mixed in and will be sold most likely to independents or whomever on the spot market at reduced price. Top tier gas is just a way to try to identify those blenders that actually are selling on a consistant basis what they are advertising, and has sufficient additives of detergents etc. in all grades, not just the premium grade.
Gas comes out of the same refinery to different end retailers [with a few proprietary additives]. Amoco BP has their own source.
There is no chemical difference to cause a MPG difference. Many other factors could cause results to vary."
It has been stated many times by people that haul from the distribution points, yes it is the same refined product, but additives are put in at distribution points, not at the refinery. Each brand will have their own additive tereatments and rates added at the tanker. Most distribution points are a pipeline, same pipe is used to ship unleaded as diesel as premium as maybe Jet fuel . The beginning of each shipment through line will have some residuals mixed in and will be sold most likely to independents or whomever on the spot market at reduced price. Top tier gas is just a way to try to identify those blenders that actually are selling on a consistant basis what they are advertising, and has sufficient additives of detergents etc. in all grades, not just the premium grade.
How much is sufficient?
The federal and then state government regulations already dictate the levels of additives that believed to be sufficient.
What is the proof that anything extra will make any difference and not just a marketing ploy.
Plus the differences must have a pretty minimal effect on the amount of deposits since the fuel system deposit problem is not a wide spread issue even in an older car.
BTW who said that premium grade should contain more additives? Another common marketing plot.
Instead of paying extra for the same gas I would rather buy some Techron concentrate and use it once a month as a precaution.
It doesn't guarantee to make any difference either but at least I know for sure that I do have extra cleaning action going on in my gas tank.
The federal and then state government regulations already dictate the levels of additives that believed to be sufficient.
What is the proof that anything extra will make any difference and not just a marketing ploy.
Plus the differences must have a pretty minimal effect on the amount of deposits since the fuel system deposit problem is not a wide spread issue even in an older car.
BTW who said that premium grade should contain more additives? Another common marketing plot.
Instead of paying extra for the same gas I would rather buy some Techron concentrate and use it once a month as a precaution.
It doesn't guarantee to make any difference either but at least I know for sure that I do have extra cleaning action going on in my gas tank.
Vad. That is just the point. The automakers are flat out saying that the gasoline supply that most of the majors sell contains just the EPA minimum and that it is not good enough! They have an opinion and have thrown their support to the idea. If you read the specs and standards required to have a fuel listed as a top tier gasoline and compare that to the EPA minimum it becomes apparent what the points are. You shouldn't have to add Techron once a month with a top tier gasoline.
If you think that US gasoline is fine just as it is, then OK. BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota don't agree. Finally, if gasoline is gasoline then the next time you are in Mexico fill up freely at the pumps and find out for yourself.
If you think that US gasoline is fine just as it is, then OK. BMW, General Motors, Honda and Toyota don't agree. Finally, if gasoline is gasoline then the next time you are in Mexico fill up freely at the pumps and find out for yourself.
Vad you like to argue a lot with little substance other than what ever you feel like making up at the moment. Fine continue with your belief systems and believe that the rest of the country operates the way Ca does. Ca may regulate a minimum amount of detergents in Ca gas, but that is not true in the rest of the country. carboned up fuel systems every day attest to that fact.
Yes, very true. Have you been to a dealership lately?
Chances are that they were trying to sell you a fuel system cleaning treatment. It is amazing how many people are caving in under the circumstances once they're being presented with some advertisement garbage coming straight from the manufacturer. Do you see my point? If it's so clearly necessary then this treatment would be included in the regular service schedule.
I believe it is not.
What does it have to do with the US gas?
I do like to argue by trying to answer some unsubstantiated claims based on very little or no evidence.
Until you or someone else can come up with some kind of a verifiable prove bejond the marketing claims my point will remains as valid as yours.
[ December 11, 2005, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: vad ]
Vad:
Here is what these automakers are pushing for, if you care to read it:
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
so if you'd like to confuse yourself with some facts this would be a great place to start. And no where at this site is anyone pushing anything except a Standard that is higher than the minimum set by the EPA. So where is the great conspiracy there that you allude to?
"What does it have to do with the US gas?" Just that if you live near the international border you can tank up down there a few times, and get quick proof that not all gasolines are created equal...and thereby not waste nearly as much time waiting for US-EPA minimum standard gas to foul something up eventually.
Besides, the very fact that you use a fuel additive in your car indicates that you already lack confidence in the fuel you buy. CA has Chevron stations scattered around, do you use their gas? Shell? Anyone else's gas on the Top Tier list? Being a skeptic is fine. I do that all the time myself but I don't look for conspiracy under every rock either. If these automakers are in bed with just these Top Tier fuel suppliers they sure are making a lot of big enemies out there by asking for what we all really want! So I ask you: what's in it for them?
Here is what these automakers are pushing for, if you care to read it:
http://www.toptiergas.com/deposit_control.html
so if you'd like to confuse yourself with some facts this would be a great place to start. And no where at this site is anyone pushing anything except a Standard that is higher than the minimum set by the EPA. So where is the great conspiracy there that you allude to?
"What does it have to do with the US gas?" Just that if you live near the international border you can tank up down there a few times, and get quick proof that not all gasolines are created equal...and thereby not waste nearly as much time waiting for US-EPA minimum standard gas to foul something up eventually.
Besides, the very fact that you use a fuel additive in your car indicates that you already lack confidence in the fuel you buy. CA has Chevron stations scattered around, do you use their gas? Shell? Anyone else's gas on the Top Tier list? Being a skeptic is fine. I do that all the time myself but I don't look for conspiracy under every rock either. If these automakers are in bed with just these Top Tier fuel suppliers they sure are making a lot of big enemies out there by asking for what we all really want! So I ask you: what's in it for them?
You're putting words in my mouth.
I don't consider all gasolines to be equal. We are talking here about gasolines being produced in the US, under the US regulations.
Why do you keep referring to Mexico?
Besides there are dozens if not hundreds of different formulas of gas here in the US.
If you have noticed, we are not talking about that here either.
The topic of the moment was the cleaning effectivenes of the US gas in general, how it compares to the TopTierGas vendors and if there is any sense in paying more for their supposedly more effective cleaning agents.
So, can you tell me what's the difference between TopTierGas and the rest of the Gas vendors?
I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.
You guys constantly refer to that website. Aren't they just a bunch of companies getting together to promote their marketing deal?
Even though it all sounds warm and fuzzy please show me why the rest of gas is inferior in comparison.
If there are differnces how significant they are.
Untill then please don't claim that Chevron or Conoco gas would keep your system cleaner.
I use Techron once in a while because I believe that it would be more beneficial to run it in my gas tank as a precaution since the concentration of the cleaning agent should be much higher than in overprised Chevron or any other gas.
Meantime I just stick with the cheapest brand name on the block. In my area it is always BP's Arco.
[ December 11, 2005, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: vad ]
I don't consider all gasolines to be equal. We are talking here about gasolines being produced in the US, under the US regulations.
Why do you keep referring to Mexico?
Besides there are dozens if not hundreds of different formulas of gas here in the US.
If you have noticed, we are not talking about that here either.
The topic of the moment was the cleaning effectivenes of the US gas in general, how it compares to the TopTierGas vendors and if there is any sense in paying more for their supposedly more effective cleaning agents.
So, can you tell me what's the difference between TopTierGas and the rest of the Gas vendors?
I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.
You guys constantly refer to that website. Aren't they just a bunch of companies getting together to promote their marketing deal?
Even though it all sounds warm and fuzzy please show me why the rest of gas is inferior in comparison.
If there are differnces how significant they are.
Untill then please don't claim that Chevron or Conoco gas would keep your system cleaner.
I use Techron once in a while because I believe that it would be more beneficial to run it in my gas tank as a precaution since the concentration of the cleaning agent should be much higher than in overprised Chevron or any other gas.
Meantime I just stick with the cheapest brand name on the block. In my area it is always BP's Arco.
[ December 11, 2005, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: vad ]
Never mind. You are entitled to your opinions, sir.
Filled the Prius with Shell yesterday. The weather this week is supposed to be as crappy and cold as last week so I'll be able to see if there really is a difference and report it here. By the way, the actual calculated mileage (not the display on the MFD) came out to 34.8 - the absolute worst I have ever gotten with the car. I do an actual calculation each time I fill up since the on-screen display seems to be a bit off. Time will tell....
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