Motul Estercore Important Info.

[boxcartommie22]

spoke with joey at motul.i found out alot about the new ester core oils.
1.the oil contains low amts of zinc and phos
2.very little moly
3.uses multiple esters
4.you definitly can mix with other oils

 

[dailydriver]

Did you ask him specifically about mixing with their older, diester series 300V products?
What about with group 3+/GTL basestock oils (like Sustina's 0W-XXes)?

Did he say what exactly they are using as AW adds to take the place of the missing moly, and ZDDP (or are they using the new 'trimer' moly, hence the low ppm count)??

 

[tribocessive]

dailydriver, i just remembered that garrett, with motul us marketing department, told me in an email of one week ago, that diester series 300V is mixable with ester core 0W15; otherwise, this requires further inquiry.

 

[dailydriver]

I am going to have to call Joey myself, as I want to mix the new Trophy 0W-40 Ester Core 300V with the older, Hi-Rev 0W-20 diester 300V.

 

[dparm]

Yes, this was discussed before:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2691687


Motul uses boron as AW in the 300V line. The motorcycle variants have an extra dose of AW.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Did you ask him specifically about mixing with their older, diester series 300V products?
What about with group 3+/GTL basestock oils (like Sustina's 0W-XXes)?

Did he say what exactly they are using as AW adds to take the place of the missing moly, and ZDDP (or are they using the new 'trimer' moly, hence the low ppm count)??



Joey told me that some of the new ester chemistry offers AW. As MolaKule has said before, there are next-gen AW additives in the form of bio-esters. Antimony is another "new" one that RLI is using.

 

[dailydriver]

I wonder how much boron is in the Ester Core products, or have they also reduced that, bearing the lower TBNs than the older diester 300Vs? (Yes, I know that reducing the Ca will do this as well.)

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
I am going to have to call Joey myself, as I want to mix the new Trophy 0W-40 Ester Core 300V with the older, Hi-Rev 0W-20 diester 300V.

Yes the new Trophy 0W-40 with it's decent 186 VI is the most interesting oil in the new 300V series. Being able to mix it with other 300V oil grades and even other Motul oils not to mention non-Motul oils would be good to know.

Now that we know the latest M1 0W-40 formulation (as good as it is) is no longer is PAO based, it's interesting to know what other high VI 0W-30/40 oils are still out there that are GP IV/V based oils? Not many.

 

[boxcartommie22]

joey said estercore can be mixed with any oil.and, they are using the multi ester as an aw additive...iam not sure iam going to use this oil!! will have to see.i forgot toask hime about the hi parafin content that it says in the oil specs or msds that disturbs me!!

 

[tribocessive]

thanks for all the diligent work, gang; greatly appreciated; i would like to reiterate that motul is claiming a 9 hp gain from merely using 300V ester core 0W15; that has to be significant to anyone focusing on performance.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: tribocessive
thanks for all the diligent work, gang; greatly appreciated; i would like to reiterate that motul is claiming a 9 hp gain from merely using 300V ester core 0W15; that has to be significant to anyone focusing on performance.

Compared to their 20W-60 I'd believe it.

They don't call it "Sprint" 0W-15 for nothing. It's for sprints, hillclimbs, drag racing, ice racing and running qualifying laps before the oil temp's gets above about 80C or so. With a VI of only 155 I'm not impressed.
I'd rather use the Sustina 0W-20 which is actually lighter at freezing temp's, only 10% heavier at room temperature and with a HTHSV of 2.6cP vs only 2.0cP for the Sprint 0W-15 300V offering a whole lot more high temp' protection if your oil temp's climb higher than expected. Again no thanks.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: tribocessive
thanks for all the diligent work, gang; greatly appreciated; i would like to reiterate that motul is claiming a 9 hp gain from merely using 300V ester core 0W15; that has to be significant to anyone focusing on performance.

Compared to their 20W-60 I'd believe it.

They don't call it "Sprint" 0W-15 for nothing. It's for sprints, hillclimbs, drag racing, ice racing and running qualifying laps before the oil temp's gets above about 80C or so. With a VI of only 155 I'm not impressed.
I'd rather use the Sustina 0W-20 which is actually lighter at freezing temp's, only 10% heavier at room temperature and with a HTHSV of 2.6cP vs only 2.0cP for the Sprint 0W-15 300V offering a whole lot more high temp' protection if your oil temp's climb higher than expected. Again no thanks.




Yes, THAT'S WHY I did NOT want to mix this with the 0W-40 Trophy, and use their diester 0W-20 instead.

 

[dailydriver]

I spoke to the other 'tech' at Motul USA today, not Joey (forgot his name).

He reiterated that the results they get out of the new Ester Cores (and the reasons they can reduce the add packs considerably), is because of the new ester based AW package.

He also said that they CAN BE mixed with ANY other oil/base stock, with NO ill effects/harm, BUT with the disclaimer that one will not get the full benefits/gains (7% more hp out of the Trophy 0W-40??!!) the more they are diluted/mixed (just like EVERY other synthetic oil out there boutique, or off the shelf

).

When pressed, he admitted that the reason for the reduction in both the TBN, AND VI is due to using a good deal less Ca and Mg in the addpack (he did not know about the moly and boron), and to not adding any extra VII polymers to the mix, since they wanted this formulation to be much more of a pure race oil, and much less of a 'streetable', long(er) drain oil like the previous diester 300V was.

Part of the theory is (as much as CATERHAM, and others will HARSHLY disapprove of/disagree with this); less stuff in there to mix/dilute the lubricating properties, and anti-wear/friction functions.

This^^ is also the theory/mindset behind the MPT 30K oils, at least for the VI part, since they have sky-high Ca (and I think, Mg) levels to get their high TBNs for LONG drain capabilities.
They don't make any claims for these to be pure racing oils, although one could use them for such in <8000 rpm redline, non-'screamer' engines, I suspect.

 

[tribocessive]

thanks for the update, dd; i see you are getting ready for winter; i will be going for a 10k mi run on rl 0W20 SM blended with sustina 0W20 SN in 3 weeks; see ya.

 

[squareznboxez]

just wanting to heap on my thanks, i am currently going through my stash of the old diester Motul 300v chrono 10w40 and will probably stick with the new Motul 300v range in the future

 

[Brit33]

Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
spoke with joey at motul.i found out alot about the new ester core oils.
1.the oil contains low amts of zinc and phos
2.very little moly
3.uses multiple esters
4.you definitly can mix with other oils


Less zddp and moly??

Not good for my flat tappets!

Will be sticking to the Castrol TWS with zddpmaxx then.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Brit33
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
spoke with joey at motul.i found out alot about the new ester core oils.
1.the oil contains low amts of zinc and phos
2.very little moly
3.uses multiple esters
4.you definitly can mix with other oils


Less zddp and moly??

Not good for my flat tappets!

Will be sticking to the Castrol TWS with zddpmaxx then.


Some of the new(est) esters act as VERY good antiwear agents, and are actually replacing the old school ones (like; moly, ZDDP, boron, etc.)

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
(7% more hp out of the Trophy 0W-40??!!)
When pressed, he admitted that the reason for the reduction in both the TBN, AND VI is due to using a good deal less Ca and Mg in the addpack (he did not know about the moly and boron), and to not adding any extra VII polymers to the mix, since they wanted this formulation to be much more of a pure race oil, and much less of a 'streetable', long(er) drain oil like the previous diester 300V was.

Part of the theory is (as much as CATERHAM, and others will HARSHLY disapprove of/disagree with this); less stuff in there to mix/dilute the lubricating properties, and anti-wear/friction functions.

This^^ is also the theory/mindset behind the MPT 30K oils, at least for the VI part, since they have sky-high Ca (and I think, Mg) levels to get their high TBNs for LONG drain capabilities.

What's interesting to me is the high VI (186) 0W-40 certainly uses more VIIs than the other 300V grades but I guess that's okay. So Motul is not exactly being consistant. The 7% HP gain I'm sure is at cold oil temp's when the oil's high VI advantage is of maximum effect.
I do agree with the argument for the reduction in Ca and Mg as they can compete with AW additives.

 

[dparm]

They could also be using stuff like antimony, which is a "next-gen" AW additive. RLI has gone that route.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
(7% more hp out of the Trophy 0W-40??!!)
When pressed, he admitted that the reason for the reduction in both the TBN, AND VI is due to using a good deal less Ca and Mg in the addpack (he did not know about the moly and boron), and to not adding any extra VII polymers to the mix, since they wanted this formulation to be much more of a pure race oil, and much less of a 'streetable', long(er) drain oil like the previous diester 300V was.

Part of the theory is (as much as CATERHAM, and others will HARSHLY disapprove of/disagree with this); less stuff in there to mix/dilute the lubricating properties, and anti-wear/friction functions.

This^^ is also the theory/mindset behind the MPT 30K oils, at least for the VI part, since they have sky-high Ca (and I think, Mg) levels to get their high TBNs for LONG drain capabilities.

What's interesting to me is the high VI (186) 0W-40 certainly uses more VIIs than the other 300V grades but I guess that's okay.


Of course there are more VIIs in the 0W-40 (vs. the other new Ester Core 300vs), but still not A LOT, otherwise the VI would be up into the RL 0W-40 range (197), or even higher yet into the Sustina ranges.