I said I would do my own research on the weekend and here it is:
( Gary or the moderators, if you want to unlock the thread and put this where it belongs in the "super tech by-pass valve problem" be my guest)
Well, here is some research for those who will take the time to read the whole thing.
This is lubeowners first thread about pictures. http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002237
If you read the thread you will notice these posts by lubeowner:
All of these filters were off of customers vehicles at my shop. The Frams were of unbelievable poor quality. The media pas pushed through the center tube in at least 10 places on each creating holes. A few pics show the anti drain back on the Frams. They were so hard that massive amounts of sludge built up on the face plate because the valve could not open at all. Two ADBV's broke in half just by slightly bending them. The white Carquest PH8A equivalent came off of a truck 20,000 with no oil change on dino oil. The filter with metal caps but with torn media was a PH820 Ford filter (Champion Labs) with 18,000 miles. The factory VW/Audi filter was of superb quality and had no defects whatsoever. The filter with the heavy sludge(wiped by my finger)on the faceplate came off a truck that had used the "Restore" additive. The filter was full of sludge and the baseplate had a copper/metalic goo all over it.
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BTW: Last week we chopped open an AC filter off of a Ford Powerstroke and the media had split from top to bottom and was pushed together on one side of the center tube. Scary.
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Filter Guy,
Yeah, lots of people that come through the shop just don't have a clue that it is important to change the oil regularly. The pictures of the real badly sludged filters I threw in because I figured that all on this board would get a kick out of how badly someone can treat their vehicle. That Champion PH820 that tore open was because the person went waaaay to long on their oil change. In no way am I trying to bash on Champion Labs products as I have used Champions Warner line for 10 years in my shop and have been pleased. Do you work for Champion? If so keep up the good work. I buy about $700/week of Champion/Warner products.
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About quick lubes, I don't blame anyone for badmouthing them and I run one. I am an independent owner with just one store. I have seen first hand the shoddy workmanship and junk filters and products used by many quick lubes especially the chains. These places give us all a bad name and I spend everyday trying to break through the stereotypes. I try to always source the best possible filters and products for my customers. I personally examine each different product line that comes in my shop and if quality is even questionable it's outta there. I carry the Mann, Hengst, Mahle filters for European car customers, Fleetguard for Cummins, and so on. Champion is my primary vendor. I know that I don't make the profits that some of my competitors do by doing things this way but I can sleep good at night.
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Ok, I will try to answer some of the questions posted. Sorry about some of the pics, novice digital camera user.
The VW filter was used with Chevron 5w-30 motor oil, about 5500 mile drain interval. It was on a 2.0L motor later model, but not new enough to require the 5w-40 synthetic.
Yes, every Fram ADBV was ROCK hard and non functional. I do not think that oil could even get into the filter. Like I said, I bent it slightly and it crumbled.
The Fram filters were used only around 5,000mi.
The Ph820 Champion filter was used 21,000 miles and was severely damaged (torn open).
The carquest PH8A with the heavy sludge was the worst oil filter I have ever seen. It weighed about 3.5 pounds. The element was totally plugged and torn up. Drain interval unknown, the lady could not remember when it was changed last.
I will try to answer any other questions any of you may have, and if you would like any others cut open I have 1,000's of used filters of every type at my disposal.
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And an interesting post from motorguy222
The number of miles and the last known oil change date would be of help.
I think that we can agree that MOST dont change the oil in their cars on regular basis,especially in a used one.
Some only change the filter every other oil change.
The one pic that shows the sludge is most likely a neglected oil system.
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Now if one were to look at Lubeowners first thread on pictures, here’s someone who had sold Champ brand filters for 10 years and sleeps well at night.
He posted the pictures and the mileages were long. And not once in his initial thread with pictures was Champ implicated as being “cheap” filters or for that matter anything much wrong with them unless people had gone long oil change intervals.
Others also asked for the same information about oil change intervals and as much information as necessary. He said he would try to answer any questions.
Now what was really interesting is lubeowners assesment of why filters fail:
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I think you answered your own question. I believe filter failure stems from long drain intervals and the exposure to heat and pressure and the filter plugging,(due to the long drain interval.) The paper I see in most filters after an extended drain is extremely brittle. It easily cracks and tears in your fingers. I see this caused by heat and pressure. The nitrile ADBV is also very brittle and hard after long intervals. The sludge is what seems to really do them in though. Once the paper is brittle and the sludge packs in to it it seems to eat away at the paper, maybe the acid builup in the oil. At this point the cartridge starts to twist and deform, especially in cheaper filters, and holes begin to tear and punch through the center tube like Fram's do. I have also seen many tear away from teh endcaps like I posted previously.
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Isn't it interesting that the same “arguments” posed by yours truely somehow carry less weight than those of lubeowner himself. Of course these were lubeowners own opinions. But he isn’t done because he posted more pictures:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002262
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Holy cow! Hit the jackpot today on failed filters. Did about 50 oil changes and cut open 20 of the filters. Found the usual Fram and its knock off brands all with at least one tear or hole through the media. The media was also heavily distorted and twisted with the endcaps becoming distorted also. I cant believe how many weird brands you have never heard of are just a Fram. They must sell under lots of different names.
Interesting though was a Hastings filter(our Champ # is PH253 chrysler) that was really crappy. The paper was extremely brittle, had a hole torn through about 1/2" and was very twisted and distorted. ADBV was rock hard.
Also I have not been impressed with NAPA silver either. Found another today with very brittle media, with distortion and a few holes torn in the paper.
Now for my rant. We cut open two of our own Champ PH253's today and both extremely damaged where the paper meets the end cap. Media was torn loose from the glue at at least 10 fold points on each filter. Mind you these were the clicker type bypasses. The media was distored where it always is with Champions (where the media is very unevenly spaced)and surprise this is where the filter was torn to **** . It seems that the bypasses must not work and the filter distorts and tears to let the oil through rather than going to bypass. I have no other explanation for the type of damage I am seeing in all the Champion line using clicker type bypass. NONE OF THESE FILTERS WERE INVOLVED IN EXTENDED DRAINS EITHER. THEY WERE 4-5000 MILES. This really ticks me off. I don't want my good reputation tarnished because a filter ends up blowing someones motor.
End rant.
I will get the digi in to work on Tuesday and get the new pics up ASAP.
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Filter guy,
Thanks for clarifying, it was late when I wrote that.
About the e-core, we have had them for quite a while. Just started to cup a few open and have found no failures. I like the fact that so much oil can flow through them. The only thing I could see going wrong with them is the combo valve used. I am not sure how "predictable" the pressure open and closed would be after an extended drain and the rubber has hardened up? Just a thought. The end cap is easy to peel off but I think in real world operating conditions this is not a factor as the oil is pushing against the cap and not pulling away at it.
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So now were are setting the standard as 4-5,000 miles not being extended drain intervals. And no problems with the E-core other than you can peel the endcap off if you want to but in the “real world” E-core works fine.
Now we move onto picture set #3:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002272;p=1
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Not trying to send everyone in to panic mode, but those filters in the pics were the only ones we cut open yesterday. I would not call the failures an isolated instance. these came off newer cars with low mileage. We rarely service cars over 6 years old and most are fewer that 4 yrs. old. Our shop is in an upper middle class area with lots of SUV's and higher end cars. We do get the occasional neglected sludgebucket as some of my pics have shown but all of the pics from yesterday were ODI's within the manufacturers suggested mileages. The camera makes the media look dark and sludgy in some of the pics but I can assure you that the oil was really not bad on most of these things. Those Fram's look terrible after 3500 miles. As I said before almost every clicker bypass, or Fram built filter we have opened since this study began has had some type of damage.
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Now lubeowner has sold Champ for 10 years and not noticed any problems. In his first thread with pictures he had a Champ PH820 that went 18,000 miles–then it was 21,000.
He had other filters going high mileage and he admits his customers do this. But somehow 5,000 miles is considered the “norm” from his posts and that’s what owners should be able to achieve. Even though most OEM’s have a 3,000 mile OCI. ( Yes, there are some exceptions but the majority are 3,000 for severe service). So we continue:
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You have gotten the point I have been trying to make. For those not understanding I will say it again. The ONLY failures we are seeing are with all Fram built products and CLICKER BYPASS Champion products. THE OTHER CHAMPION PRODUCTS ARE HAVING NO ISSUES, other than the Poserstroke diesel filter that had turned to mush. Why don't I post up pics of Wix, Fleetguard, Baldwin, or other high end filters? Because I have seen no failures with them. I am cutting open all filters, clicker, no clicker, e-core, etc. I will say it again. THE DAMAGED CHAMPION FILTERS ARE ALWAYS, 100% OF THE TIME CLICKER BYPASS MODELS. Specifically PH2835, PH8A, PH820, PH253, PH2808 seem to be having the porblems. These are off newer vehicles with 150,000 mile service hybrid coolants, low mileage, and drain intervals that are within manufactures recommendations.
I will also say again, that I dont care about slightly deformed media either, but where you see the deformations, the ends are torn away from the endcap, and anyone who chooses not to believe this, I will be happy to send the 100 filters to them if they pay freight.
Please remember that many manufacturers are recommending 10,000 or greater ODI's, so how is this clicker junk going to withstand that?
BTW, just say no to the NAPA nascar select spin flow filter. A low end Wix, with some crazy plastic oil diverter. The two I have taken apart had media that was twisted, and distorted so badly that the end caps were no longer parallel.
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Now he’s indicated that only clicker by-pass valve filters have problems. He’s also implicated Fram. Champ, Purolator, and now even Wix. Basically all of the “cheap” brands.
Of course when I post that all filter companies less expensive filter use less media and can suffer the same effect, well I’m not to be trusted.
Of course he’s willing to send filters back, which I could help him with. And now OCI’s are jumping to 10,000 miles.. Err, what happened to the 3,000 mile change interval everyone advertises?
But by now there has been a definite switch in attitude. All of a sudden after 10 years of selling Warner made by Champ, clicker valves had been available long before lubeowner posted his second thread about pictures..now we have a problem. Wonder why it wasn’t a problem with the first set of pictures?
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Thought about doing that myself, but then thought why bother. One thing that I have learned in life is that if someone WANTS to do it right they would already be doing so. The company has changed hands several times recently and it seems that cutting manufacturing costs is priority #1 at the expense of the customer. I would really like to know what type of "testing" was done on the clicker bypass design. Anyone who has cut one open can see that this B.S. clicker design is nothing more than eliminating parts to cut cost. I still would like to know how they expect it to work without sending shockwaves through the filter. What really put me over the edge today was a fuel filter sourced through them on a late model Ford. The element was broken loose and rattling around inside. I cut it open and found the glue thatwas supposed to hold the cartridge to the top of the can had disentigated and the cartridge was just loose floating around in the filter body. Great. Will be meeting with the local Wix rep on Thurs. to consider changing filter suppliers.
FWIW, I looked in some old Champ stock and rarely used filters on our shelf today. Boy have these filters changed. Some of these are 6-7 years old and look nothing like their current stuff, they used to be much better.
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So now lubeowner after 10 years of selling Warner turns into manufacturing engineering and start to lay blame cutting costs. ( I never did answer the fuel filter bit. But just fwiw..there are 3 companies that every filter manufacturer sources in-line fuel filters from. Champ doesn’t make these nor do the others, as far as I know. Those companies are in Indiana, Ohio, and Israel.)
One page 3 of this thread is where I asked for some information that would be helpfull to all forumites. Even offered my son to the the documentation or myself when I go on vacation.
You can read the posts, if you’re so inclined because the same battles ensued. Other than Slalom44 posting about his claim on a Champ filter being paid.
So now we go onto the next thread with pictures:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002476
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I have had some requests to keep the pics coming and I had a little time today to cut open a few filters. I chose the usual suspects that I have seen the most problems with. They are Champion PH400 (Ford) and PH2808 (Honda), both clickers. The pics will speak for themselves. The Ph400 had about 4K and came off a Windstar van. The Ph2808 I am not sure of it's history, but noted the oil draining out was not very dark. Some of you need to understand that these filters are just in a big drainage barrel before going in our filter crusher at the end of the day and therefore it is hard to document the year, make, model, mileage, weather conditions, driving habits, and everything else I hae been asked by some people here. I am just collecting random samples and posting the pics, nothing more.
BTW, I would be forever grateful to anyone here that can direct me to a place that will allow direct linking to the pics. For now, if someone smarter than me wants to post the pics to this thread please feel free.
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Now in this case, he choose what he wants us to see. He also says he doesn’t have the time to give us OCI information, nor will he. Yet his first set of pictures he had the time to give us data on OCI’s.
I suppose the argument is he doesn’t need to cut open other filter because he thinks he won’t find problems. And we won’t know how long a filters has been on the engine so there is no reference point as to what we are seeing.
A couple interesting posts in this thread;
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002400
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As for my customers doing abnormal things:
I just ran a database report in our internal computer system. Average drain interval of the 8723 vehicles in our system is 3989.10 miles. Nothing too strange here. We pump mostly 5w-30 and 10w-30 Chevron in the majority of vehicles we see. 5w-20 is also getting a lot more usage here in the past few years.
BTW, I really am not trying to bash Champ. I have said before I will post all pics of damaged filters, not just a certain brand, but the fact is that most of the ones with problems are Champ therefore those are the ones with pictures. We have cut open hundreds of Wixes and Purolators, Denso, Tokyo Roki, and Fram among others. The problems have all been with the Fram and Champs as the pics have shown. The only other failures I have seen were with 2 Wix filters that had been run for 20,000+ miles and were obviously severely damged and sludged (customer neglect). The only Purolator I have seen a problem with is the Pure-One we saw yesterday with a pleat torn loose from the endcap. If there are failures from any brands I will post pics, I don't care who makes them.
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Gary,
I was not trying to slam on Hastings. I think they are one of the best filters out there. But there is definitely a big quality difference in the Casite line. The media used was similar to what I am seeing in the low end Champions, very brittle after use. I don't know how long this filter was used but the oil was pretty dark colored. I am not implying to add and Hastings or Baldwin filter to a do not use list, just observing what I saw with one particular filter. Again, there was no actual torn media in the filter.
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Rather than go on and on..I think people will see a pattern. After the initial picture thread, no specific information was given with respect to the filters pictured. He can "generally" say about how long the filter might have went. There were other “debates” where lubeowner said he didn’t have the time to document the mileages for the filters he cut open.
Yet, he has industry stats from sources that say most people go 4,500 miles between changes. He has his own computer that says his customer average almost 4,000 miles between oil changes. Yet for a specific filter off a specific car engine, he knows nothing. So he or his crew is logging in the information into the computer but we can’t be privy to the amount of miles the customer has on their car or the oil change interval length.
And my questions to motorguy222 were;
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MG:We have seen many filter failures from Lubeowner,the majority of which were within OCI guidelines,they still failed.
MG:Lubeowner has supplied this info over and over again.
Can you link to the specfic posts where the information about failed filters and mileage since last change are? Especially those that didn't last the OCI and which pictures they are?
I must have missed them..
Because I recall myself and some others asking for that very same information and not getting it for the vast majority of pictures posted by lubeowner. I seem to recall he didn't have the time to get the information on mileages. Could be wrong though..i'll leave it to you to show me the mileage for the filter pictures posted..
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He made some generalized statements and can’t back them up, even though he tried. Lubeowner has never “backed’ up his threads with data since his first set of pictures. He has discussed various pieces of information but as anyone who does the research will find out, there is no mileages posted with the pictures. Something he said he would give, something many asked for including those who have taken me to task. Which is why I asked MG to show us where this information is because I still can’t find it after going back through the picture threads as posted by lubeowner.
So what does this all mean? To some of you probably not much. But when going back and rereading the threads it is interesting how someone who had sold a particular brand for 10 years and never had a problem suddenly thinks the sky is falling. One might concluded he never cut filters open before until he found this forum. But he mentioned he'd seen problems before.
The ever changing OCI intervals for OEM's was interesting as well.
I will state once again, that all low end filters by every manufacturers have less pleats than the more expensive options. The low pleat count can experience problems before those with higher pleat count might. One of those problems is that there will be uneven pleat spacing. Why? Because there is less pleats. Simple as. And as lubeowner himself has said, that is not the problem. The problem is, imho, the conditions the filter sees during it's life betwen oil changes. Low end filters are not made to last as long as their higher end counterparts. They can't. The don't have the dirt holding capacity because they don't have as much media. Why that is so hard for some to determine for themselves is beyond me. Because they have less pleats they are more susceptable to other problems than filters with more pleats. Changing to a better filter does solve the "problem". But the real problem is extended oil change intervals for the filters with less pleats. If one changes oil near where they should the "problems" of ripped or torn pleats virtually goes away.
But that's blaming the consumer, which is EXACTLY what lubeowner did when he gave his reasons for filter failures, blame those who are not following guidelines of the manufacturers OCI. And then use the excuse that "because well most everybody does go longer" and filters should compensate. They do, which is why companies offer alternatives. For those who sell or market the less pleat filter, they should reinforce the OCI as when to change. If the customer has a history of going to long then offer them an alternative and tell them why. Or take the easy path and blame someone else. In this case the filter manufacturer.
This is not reflective of lubeowners pictures themselves. They are what they are. What it is reflective of is the inability to get information on the specific filters when posted. Something that was asked by many. If one wants to evalute something, the more data the better. But at least post basic data such as OCI and mileage on vehicle. Especially when you have customers who go 18-21,000 miles between oil changes and post that information. And no, obviously that is an exception. But how are we to know what's what?
( Gary or the moderators, if you want to unlock the thread and put this where it belongs in the "super tech by-pass valve problem" be my guest)
Well, here is some research for those who will take the time to read the whole thing.
This is lubeowners first thread about pictures. http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002237
If you read the thread you will notice these posts by lubeowner:
All of these filters were off of customers vehicles at my shop. The Frams were of unbelievable poor quality. The media pas pushed through the center tube in at least 10 places on each creating holes. A few pics show the anti drain back on the Frams. They were so hard that massive amounts of sludge built up on the face plate because the valve could not open at all. Two ADBV's broke in half just by slightly bending them. The white Carquest PH8A equivalent came off of a truck 20,000 with no oil change on dino oil. The filter with metal caps but with torn media was a PH820 Ford filter (Champion Labs) with 18,000 miles. The factory VW/Audi filter was of superb quality and had no defects whatsoever. The filter with the heavy sludge(wiped by my finger)on the faceplate came off a truck that had used the "Restore" additive. The filter was full of sludge and the baseplate had a copper/metalic goo all over it.
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BTW: Last week we chopped open an AC filter off of a Ford Powerstroke and the media had split from top to bottom and was pushed together on one side of the center tube. Scary.
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Filter Guy,
Yeah, lots of people that come through the shop just don't have a clue that it is important to change the oil regularly. The pictures of the real badly sludged filters I threw in because I figured that all on this board would get a kick out of how badly someone can treat their vehicle. That Champion PH820 that tore open was because the person went waaaay to long on their oil change. In no way am I trying to bash on Champion Labs products as I have used Champions Warner line for 10 years in my shop and have been pleased. Do you work for Champion? If so keep up the good work. I buy about $700/week of Champion/Warner products.
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About quick lubes, I don't blame anyone for badmouthing them and I run one. I am an independent owner with just one store. I have seen first hand the shoddy workmanship and junk filters and products used by many quick lubes especially the chains. These places give us all a bad name and I spend everyday trying to break through the stereotypes. I try to always source the best possible filters and products for my customers. I personally examine each different product line that comes in my shop and if quality is even questionable it's outta there. I carry the Mann, Hengst, Mahle filters for European car customers, Fleetguard for Cummins, and so on. Champion is my primary vendor. I know that I don't make the profits that some of my competitors do by doing things this way but I can sleep good at night.
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Ok, I will try to answer some of the questions posted. Sorry about some of the pics, novice digital camera user.
The VW filter was used with Chevron 5w-30 motor oil, about 5500 mile drain interval. It was on a 2.0L motor later model, but not new enough to require the 5w-40 synthetic.
Yes, every Fram ADBV was ROCK hard and non functional. I do not think that oil could even get into the filter. Like I said, I bent it slightly and it crumbled.
The Fram filters were used only around 5,000mi.
The Ph820 Champion filter was used 21,000 miles and was severely damaged (torn open).
The carquest PH8A with the heavy sludge was the worst oil filter I have ever seen. It weighed about 3.5 pounds. The element was totally plugged and torn up. Drain interval unknown, the lady could not remember when it was changed last.
I will try to answer any other questions any of you may have, and if you would like any others cut open I have 1,000's of used filters of every type at my disposal.
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And an interesting post from motorguy222
The number of miles and the last known oil change date would be of help.
I think that we can agree that MOST dont change the oil in their cars on regular basis,especially in a used one.
Some only change the filter every other oil change.
The one pic that shows the sludge is most likely a neglected oil system.
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Now if one were to look at Lubeowners first thread on pictures, here’s someone who had sold Champ brand filters for 10 years and sleeps well at night.
He posted the pictures and the mileages were long. And not once in his initial thread with pictures was Champ implicated as being “cheap” filters or for that matter anything much wrong with them unless people had gone long oil change intervals.
Others also asked for the same information about oil change intervals and as much information as necessary. He said he would try to answer any questions.
Now what was really interesting is lubeowners assesment of why filters fail:
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I think you answered your own question. I believe filter failure stems from long drain intervals and the exposure to heat and pressure and the filter plugging,(due to the long drain interval.) The paper I see in most filters after an extended drain is extremely brittle. It easily cracks and tears in your fingers. I see this caused by heat and pressure. The nitrile ADBV is also very brittle and hard after long intervals. The sludge is what seems to really do them in though. Once the paper is brittle and the sludge packs in to it it seems to eat away at the paper, maybe the acid builup in the oil. At this point the cartridge starts to twist and deform, especially in cheaper filters, and holes begin to tear and punch through the center tube like Fram's do. I have also seen many tear away from teh endcaps like I posted previously.
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Isn't it interesting that the same “arguments” posed by yours truely somehow carry less weight than those of lubeowner himself. Of course these were lubeowners own opinions. But he isn’t done because he posted more pictures:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002262
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Holy cow! Hit the jackpot today on failed filters. Did about 50 oil changes and cut open 20 of the filters. Found the usual Fram and its knock off brands all with at least one tear or hole through the media. The media was also heavily distorted and twisted with the endcaps becoming distorted also. I cant believe how many weird brands you have never heard of are just a Fram. They must sell under lots of different names.
Interesting though was a Hastings filter(our Champ # is PH253 chrysler) that was really crappy. The paper was extremely brittle, had a hole torn through about 1/2" and was very twisted and distorted. ADBV was rock hard.
Also I have not been impressed with NAPA silver either. Found another today with very brittle media, with distortion and a few holes torn in the paper.
Now for my rant. We cut open two of our own Champ PH253's today and both extremely damaged where the paper meets the end cap. Media was torn loose from the glue at at least 10 fold points on each filter. Mind you these were the clicker type bypasses. The media was distored where it always is with Champions (where the media is very unevenly spaced)and surprise this is where the filter was torn to **** . It seems that the bypasses must not work and the filter distorts and tears to let the oil through rather than going to bypass. I have no other explanation for the type of damage I am seeing in all the Champion line using clicker type bypass. NONE OF THESE FILTERS WERE INVOLVED IN EXTENDED DRAINS EITHER. THEY WERE 4-5000 MILES. This really ticks me off. I don't want my good reputation tarnished because a filter ends up blowing someones motor.
End rant.
I will get the digi in to work on Tuesday and get the new pics up ASAP.
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Filter guy,
Thanks for clarifying, it was late when I wrote that.
About the e-core, we have had them for quite a while. Just started to cup a few open and have found no failures. I like the fact that so much oil can flow through them. The only thing I could see going wrong with them is the combo valve used. I am not sure how "predictable" the pressure open and closed would be after an extended drain and the rubber has hardened up? Just a thought. The end cap is easy to peel off but I think in real world operating conditions this is not a factor as the oil is pushing against the cap and not pulling away at it.
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So now were are setting the standard as 4-5,000 miles not being extended drain intervals. And no problems with the E-core other than you can peel the endcap off if you want to but in the “real world” E-core works fine.
Now we move onto picture set #3:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002272;p=1
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Not trying to send everyone in to panic mode, but those filters in the pics were the only ones we cut open yesterday. I would not call the failures an isolated instance. these came off newer cars with low mileage. We rarely service cars over 6 years old and most are fewer that 4 yrs. old. Our shop is in an upper middle class area with lots of SUV's and higher end cars. We do get the occasional neglected sludgebucket as some of my pics have shown but all of the pics from yesterday were ODI's within the manufacturers suggested mileages. The camera makes the media look dark and sludgy in some of the pics but I can assure you that the oil was really not bad on most of these things. Those Fram's look terrible after 3500 miles. As I said before almost every clicker bypass, or Fram built filter we have opened since this study began has had some type of damage.
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Now lubeowner has sold Champ for 10 years and not noticed any problems. In his first thread with pictures he had a Champ PH820 that went 18,000 miles–then it was 21,000.
He had other filters going high mileage and he admits his customers do this. But somehow 5,000 miles is considered the “norm” from his posts and that’s what owners should be able to achieve. Even though most OEM’s have a 3,000 mile OCI. ( Yes, there are some exceptions but the majority are 3,000 for severe service). So we continue:
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You have gotten the point I have been trying to make. For those not understanding I will say it again. The ONLY failures we are seeing are with all Fram built products and CLICKER BYPASS Champion products. THE OTHER CHAMPION PRODUCTS ARE HAVING NO ISSUES, other than the Poserstroke diesel filter that had turned to mush. Why don't I post up pics of Wix, Fleetguard, Baldwin, or other high end filters? Because I have seen no failures with them. I am cutting open all filters, clicker, no clicker, e-core, etc. I will say it again. THE DAMAGED CHAMPION FILTERS ARE ALWAYS, 100% OF THE TIME CLICKER BYPASS MODELS. Specifically PH2835, PH8A, PH820, PH253, PH2808 seem to be having the porblems. These are off newer vehicles with 150,000 mile service hybrid coolants, low mileage, and drain intervals that are within manufactures recommendations.
I will also say again, that I dont care about slightly deformed media either, but where you see the deformations, the ends are torn away from the endcap, and anyone who chooses not to believe this, I will be happy to send the 100 filters to them if they pay freight.
Please remember that many manufacturers are recommending 10,000 or greater ODI's, so how is this clicker junk going to withstand that?
BTW, just say no to the NAPA nascar select spin flow filter. A low end Wix, with some crazy plastic oil diverter. The two I have taken apart had media that was twisted, and distorted so badly that the end caps were no longer parallel.
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Now he’s indicated that only clicker by-pass valve filters have problems. He’s also implicated Fram. Champ, Purolator, and now even Wix. Basically all of the “cheap” brands.
Of course when I post that all filter companies less expensive filter use less media and can suffer the same effect, well I’m not to be trusted.
Of course he’s willing to send filters back, which I could help him with. And now OCI’s are jumping to 10,000 miles.. Err, what happened to the 3,000 mile change interval everyone advertises?
But by now there has been a definite switch in attitude. All of a sudden after 10 years of selling Warner made by Champ, clicker valves had been available long before lubeowner posted his second thread about pictures..now we have a problem. Wonder why it wasn’t a problem with the first set of pictures?
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Thought about doing that myself, but then thought why bother. One thing that I have learned in life is that if someone WANTS to do it right they would already be doing so. The company has changed hands several times recently and it seems that cutting manufacturing costs is priority #1 at the expense of the customer. I would really like to know what type of "testing" was done on the clicker bypass design. Anyone who has cut one open can see that this B.S. clicker design is nothing more than eliminating parts to cut cost. I still would like to know how they expect it to work without sending shockwaves through the filter. What really put me over the edge today was a fuel filter sourced through them on a late model Ford. The element was broken loose and rattling around inside. I cut it open and found the glue thatwas supposed to hold the cartridge to the top of the can had disentigated and the cartridge was just loose floating around in the filter body. Great. Will be meeting with the local Wix rep on Thurs. to consider changing filter suppliers.
FWIW, I looked in some old Champ stock and rarely used filters on our shelf today. Boy have these filters changed. Some of these are 6-7 years old and look nothing like their current stuff, they used to be much better.
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So now lubeowner after 10 years of selling Warner turns into manufacturing engineering and start to lay blame cutting costs. ( I never did answer the fuel filter bit. But just fwiw..there are 3 companies that every filter manufacturer sources in-line fuel filters from. Champ doesn’t make these nor do the others, as far as I know. Those companies are in Indiana, Ohio, and Israel.)
One page 3 of this thread is where I asked for some information that would be helpfull to all forumites. Even offered my son to the the documentation or myself when I go on vacation.
You can read the posts, if you’re so inclined because the same battles ensued. Other than Slalom44 posting about his claim on a Champ filter being paid.
So now we go onto the next thread with pictures:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002476
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I have had some requests to keep the pics coming and I had a little time today to cut open a few filters. I chose the usual suspects that I have seen the most problems with. They are Champion PH400 (Ford) and PH2808 (Honda), both clickers. The pics will speak for themselves. The Ph400 had about 4K and came off a Windstar van. The Ph2808 I am not sure of it's history, but noted the oil draining out was not very dark. Some of you need to understand that these filters are just in a big drainage barrel before going in our filter crusher at the end of the day and therefore it is hard to document the year, make, model, mileage, weather conditions, driving habits, and everything else I hae been asked by some people here. I am just collecting random samples and posting the pics, nothing more.
BTW, I would be forever grateful to anyone here that can direct me to a place that will allow direct linking to the pics. For now, if someone smarter than me wants to post the pics to this thread please feel free.
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Now in this case, he choose what he wants us to see. He also says he doesn’t have the time to give us OCI information, nor will he. Yet his first set of pictures he had the time to give us data on OCI’s.
I suppose the argument is he doesn’t need to cut open other filter because he thinks he won’t find problems. And we won’t know how long a filters has been on the engine so there is no reference point as to what we are seeing.
A couple interesting posts in this thread;
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002400
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As for my customers doing abnormal things:
I just ran a database report in our internal computer system. Average drain interval of the 8723 vehicles in our system is 3989.10 miles. Nothing too strange here. We pump mostly 5w-30 and 10w-30 Chevron in the majority of vehicles we see. 5w-20 is also getting a lot more usage here in the past few years.
BTW, I really am not trying to bash Champ. I have said before I will post all pics of damaged filters, not just a certain brand, but the fact is that most of the ones with problems are Champ therefore those are the ones with pictures. We have cut open hundreds of Wixes and Purolators, Denso, Tokyo Roki, and Fram among others. The problems have all been with the Fram and Champs as the pics have shown. The only other failures I have seen were with 2 Wix filters that had been run for 20,000+ miles and were obviously severely damged and sludged (customer neglect). The only Purolator I have seen a problem with is the Pure-One we saw yesterday with a pleat torn loose from the endcap. If there are failures from any brands I will post pics, I don't care who makes them.
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Gary,
I was not trying to slam on Hastings. I think they are one of the best filters out there. But there is definitely a big quality difference in the Casite line. The media used was similar to what I am seeing in the low end Champions, very brittle after use. I don't know how long this filter was used but the oil was pretty dark colored. I am not implying to add and Hastings or Baldwin filter to a do not use list, just observing what I saw with one particular filter. Again, there was no actual torn media in the filter.
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Rather than go on and on..I think people will see a pattern. After the initial picture thread, no specific information was given with respect to the filters pictured. He can "generally" say about how long the filter might have went. There were other “debates” where lubeowner said he didn’t have the time to document the mileages for the filters he cut open.
Yet, he has industry stats from sources that say most people go 4,500 miles between changes. He has his own computer that says his customer average almost 4,000 miles between oil changes. Yet for a specific filter off a specific car engine, he knows nothing. So he or his crew is logging in the information into the computer but we can’t be privy to the amount of miles the customer has on their car or the oil change interval length.
And my questions to motorguy222 were;
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MG:We have seen many filter failures from Lubeowner,the majority of which were within OCI guidelines,they still failed.
MG:Lubeowner has supplied this info over and over again.
Can you link to the specfic posts where the information about failed filters and mileage since last change are? Especially those that didn't last the OCI and which pictures they are?
I must have missed them..
Because I recall myself and some others asking for that very same information and not getting it for the vast majority of pictures posted by lubeowner. I seem to recall he didn't have the time to get the information on mileages. Could be wrong though..i'll leave it to you to show me the mileage for the filter pictures posted..
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He made some generalized statements and can’t back them up, even though he tried. Lubeowner has never “backed’ up his threads with data since his first set of pictures. He has discussed various pieces of information but as anyone who does the research will find out, there is no mileages posted with the pictures. Something he said he would give, something many asked for including those who have taken me to task. Which is why I asked MG to show us where this information is because I still can’t find it after going back through the picture threads as posted by lubeowner.
So what does this all mean? To some of you probably not much. But when going back and rereading the threads it is interesting how someone who had sold a particular brand for 10 years and never had a problem suddenly thinks the sky is falling. One might concluded he never cut filters open before until he found this forum. But he mentioned he'd seen problems before.
The ever changing OCI intervals for OEM's was interesting as well.
I will state once again, that all low end filters by every manufacturers have less pleats than the more expensive options. The low pleat count can experience problems before those with higher pleat count might. One of those problems is that there will be uneven pleat spacing. Why? Because there is less pleats. Simple as. And as lubeowner himself has said, that is not the problem. The problem is, imho, the conditions the filter sees during it's life betwen oil changes. Low end filters are not made to last as long as their higher end counterparts. They can't. The don't have the dirt holding capacity because they don't have as much media. Why that is so hard for some to determine for themselves is beyond me. Because they have less pleats they are more susceptable to other problems than filters with more pleats. Changing to a better filter does solve the "problem". But the real problem is extended oil change intervals for the filters with less pleats. If one changes oil near where they should the "problems" of ripped or torn pleats virtually goes away.
But that's blaming the consumer, which is EXACTLY what lubeowner did when he gave his reasons for filter failures, blame those who are not following guidelines of the manufacturers OCI. And then use the excuse that "because well most everybody does go longer" and filters should compensate. They do, which is why companies offer alternatives. For those who sell or market the less pleat filter, they should reinforce the OCI as when to change. If the customer has a history of going to long then offer them an alternative and tell them why. Or take the easy path and blame someone else. In this case the filter manufacturer.
This is not reflective of lubeowners pictures themselves. They are what they are. What it is reflective of is the inability to get information on the specific filters when posted. Something that was asked by many. If one wants to evalute something, the more data the better. But at least post basic data such as OCI and mileage on vehicle. Especially when you have customers who go 18-21,000 miles between oil changes and post that information. And no, obviously that is an exception. But how are we to know what's what?
