Hi; I'm new at posting here and have been to this site now and then. Anyway I like what I see so far and plan on visiting more often. My question...I notice Mobil 1 makes a "Racing 4T" 10W-40 with 1,600 PPM Phos. & 1,700 PPM Zinc. It notes; specifically for motorcycles where clutch lubrication is also important. From what I've learned so far, this oil most likely don't have any friction modifiers in it because of the motorcycle clutch deal. And most of the time other oils will have friction modifiers. So why am I looking at motorcycle oils? I guess because I lust after the high PPM of Phos. & Zinc. Is the motorcycle oil blends even better for your typical Kawasaki twin cylinder 25HP lawn mower engines even without the friction modifiers? Or am I better off with an oil that has friction modifiers and less Phos.1,100PPM and less Zinc 1,200PPM like the Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 blend?? I know some would say that this is overkill but we are on this site...right?
motorcycle oil in twin cylinder lawn mowers?
- Thread starter j454
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Either oil is fine. Neither oil should have friction modifiers, but more importantly, both have an elevated level of anti-wear additives vs. everyday synthetic PCMO oils or a regular straight grade, SAE 30 or 40. The more expensive bike oil has a higher level of anti-wear ZDDP, and the diesel oil will have higher TBN most likely, but still very good levels of ZDDP for anti-wear. The TDT would be a better value IMO, and the 4T would be overkill if you're into that. Those KAWA twins cost about a grand or more to replace.
BTW,
BTW,
Thanks for the Welcome, I'm still catching on here so I hope you don't mind me asking this in another way to be sure I got it. Are you sure that the M1 TDT 5W-40 has no friction modifiers in it? I thought that the oil companies mainly kept them "friction modifiers" out of motorcycle oil and added them to most of the others. Thanks
I like the motorcycle oils in the small air cooled engines of lawn mowers and lawn tractors, even my little 5 HP trim mower.
The motorcycle oils also have more anti rust, anti foam, antioxidants. They are used in dual roles of engine and transmission lubes so they are highly shear stable. PAO motorcycle oils also handle the extreme heat of air cooled engines. (there is a thread back a few months where lawn tractor air cooled engine oil temperatures were measured in the 250-260F range)
The motorcycle oils also have more anti rust, anti foam, antioxidants. They are used in dual roles of engine and transmission lubes so they are highly shear stable. PAO motorcycle oils also handle the extreme heat of air cooled engines. (there is a thread back a few months where lawn tractor air cooled engine oil temperatures were measured in the 250-260F range)
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've since learned that the Mobil 1 TDT oil has little to no friction modifiers in it as well the motorcycle oils don't. With these types of oil not having friction modifiers and they are higher quality oils, why is it a good thing to have friction modifiers in oil in the first place? Or what am I giving up when not using an oil with friction modifiers? Thanks
Originally Posted By: j454
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've since learned that the Mobil 1 TDT oil has little to no friction modifiers in it as well the motorcycle oils don't. With these types of oil not having friction modifiers and they are higher quality oils, why is it a good thing to have friction modifiers in oil in the first place? Or what am I giving up when not using an oil with friction modifiers? Thanks
Motul has 1200 ppm ZDDP for anti-wear.
867 ppm Moly for decreased friction and anti-wear.
It took me a long time to find the exact ones I like.
Either 5W-40 Motul 300V or 15W-50 Motul V both share the same chamistries.
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've since learned that the Mobil 1 TDT oil has little to no friction modifiers in it as well the motorcycle oils don't. With these types of oil not having friction modifiers and they are higher quality oils, why is it a good thing to have friction modifiers in oil in the first place? Or what am I giving up when not using an oil with friction modifiers? Thanks
Motul has 1200 ppm ZDDP for anti-wear.
867 ppm Moly for decreased friction and anti-wear.
It took me a long time to find the exact ones I like.
Either 5W-40 Motul 300V or 15W-50 Motul V both share the same chamistries.
I use the M1 TDT in my JD tractor with Kawi engine.
Great results so far!
FWIW, TDT gives the best overall UOA of any oil I have ever seen or tried.
Chris
Great results so far!
FWIW, TDT gives the best overall UOA of any oil I have ever seen or tried.
Chris
Originally Posted By: Pete591
Originally Posted By: j454
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've since learned that the Mobil 1 TDT oil has little to no friction modifiers in it as well the motorcycle oils don't. With these types of oil not having friction modifiers and they are higher quality oils, why is it a good thing to have friction modifiers in oil in the first place? Or what am I giving up when not using an oil with friction modifiers? Thanks
Motul has 1200 ppm ZDDP for anti-wear.
867 ppm Moly for decreased friction and anti-wear.
It took me a long time to find the exact ones I like.
Either 5W-40 Motul 300V or 15W-50 Motul V both share the same chamistries.
Thanks for sharing, this may be a shortcut for me in my quest for the oil I'm looking for.
Originally Posted By: j454
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've since learned that the Mobil 1 TDT oil has little to no friction modifiers in it as well the motorcycle oils don't. With these types of oil not having friction modifiers and they are higher quality oils, why is it a good thing to have friction modifiers in oil in the first place? Or what am I giving up when not using an oil with friction modifiers? Thanks
Motul has 1200 ppm ZDDP for anti-wear.
867 ppm Moly for decreased friction and anti-wear.
It took me a long time to find the exact ones I like.
Either 5W-40 Motul 300V or 15W-50 Motul V both share the same chamistries.
Thanks for sharing, this may be a shortcut for me in my quest for the oil I'm looking for.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I use the M1 TDT in my JD tractor with Kawi engine.
Great results so far!
FWIW, TDT gives the best overall UOA of any oil I have ever seen or tried.
Chris
Thanks, this is what I've just used at my beginning of the season oil change. I'm just second guessing myself and wondering about the friction modifiers not being in this oil.
I use the M1 TDT in my JD tractor with Kawi engine.
Great results so far!
FWIW, TDT gives the best overall UOA of any oil I have ever seen or tried.
Chris
Thanks, this is what I've just used at my beginning of the season oil change. I'm just second guessing myself and wondering about the friction modifiers not being in this oil.
Originally Posted By: j454
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've since learned that the Mobil 1 TDT oil has little to no friction modifiers in it as well the motorcycle oils don't. With these types of oil not having friction modifiers and they are higher quality oils, why is it a good thing to have friction modifiers in oil in the first place? Or what am I giving up when not using an oil with friction modifiers? Thanks
Try this link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729029#Post729029
You can do a search of PCMO for Friction Modifiers. There is a lot of good information there. The search function is not great, but, enter Friction Modifiers, in subject, newer than 1 year, older than 6 months, then older than 8 months, then older than 10 months.
Friction modifiers are a low friction, easy shear, first line of defense. Many FM are organic and some older design diesel engines do not like them.
I talked to a Mobil 1 rep and he said M1 5W-40 TDT had a low lever of mild FM.
Quote:
Friction modifiers are a sacrificial, first line of defense, anti wear. Lets take an oil with ZDDP and a good dose of friction modifiers. The phosphorus will attach to the journal and bearing. If the oil film is breached for whatever reason, then phosphorus rubs against phosphorus to protect the bearings and journal. However, phosphorus against phosphorus is a high friction surface. It generates heat and consumes energy/power.
Now the friction modifiers will attach to the phosphorus on the journal and the bearing. I have heard FM describes like fine hair/whiskers. If the film is beginning to breach, you will have FM against FM. They are sacrificial and shear away with very little friction, thus the name friction modifiers. If the breach is severe, then back to phosphorus against phosphorus.
Again, FM are a first line defense, very low friction, generates little heat, consumes little energy/power. Think of them as a near miss protection. I like all the FM I can get in a PCMO.
Obviously, FM would not be good in a motorcycle that also uses the engine oil for the transmission and wet clutch. In my gasoline tractors and small air cooled engines, I use motorcycle oils that have low/no FM. These oils have a very high HTHS, high ZDDP, and these engines run a more or less constant/low RPM. Since I am not even remotely concerned about fuel mileage in these engines, because of the high HTHS, high ZDDP, constant RPM, FM is not a real concern.
Thanks for the feedback. I guess I've since learned that the Mobil 1 TDT oil has little to no friction modifiers in it as well the motorcycle oils don't. With these types of oil not having friction modifiers and they are higher quality oils, why is it a good thing to have friction modifiers in oil in the first place? Or what am I giving up when not using an oil with friction modifiers? Thanks
Try this link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729029#Post729029
You can do a search of PCMO for Friction Modifiers. There is a lot of good information there. The search function is not great, but, enter Friction Modifiers, in subject, newer than 1 year, older than 6 months, then older than 8 months, then older than 10 months.
Friction modifiers are a low friction, easy shear, first line of defense. Many FM are organic and some older design diesel engines do not like them.
I talked to a Mobil 1 rep and he said M1 5W-40 TDT had a low lever of mild FM.
Quote:
Friction modifiers are a sacrificial, first line of defense, anti wear. Lets take an oil with ZDDP and a good dose of friction modifiers. The phosphorus will attach to the journal and bearing. If the oil film is breached for whatever reason, then phosphorus rubs against phosphorus to protect the bearings and journal. However, phosphorus against phosphorus is a high friction surface. It generates heat and consumes energy/power.
Now the friction modifiers will attach to the phosphorus on the journal and the bearing. I have heard FM describes like fine hair/whiskers. If the film is beginning to breach, you will have FM against FM. They are sacrificial and shear away with very little friction, thus the name friction modifiers. If the breach is severe, then back to phosphorus against phosphorus.
Again, FM are a first line defense, very low friction, generates little heat, consumes little energy/power. Think of them as a near miss protection. I like all the FM I can get in a PCMO.
Obviously, FM would not be good in a motorcycle that also uses the engine oil for the transmission and wet clutch. In my gasoline tractors and small air cooled engines, I use motorcycle oils that have low/no FM. These oils have a very high HTHS, high ZDDP, and these engines run a more or less constant/low RPM. Since I am not even remotely concerned about fuel mileage in these engines, because of the high HTHS, high ZDDP, constant RPM, FM is not a real concern.
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Hi;Thanks for the link on friction modifiers. I've done some searching already and this maybe one of the ones I've run across? I'll have to read it later, after work. Thanks again for your time.
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