Motor using oil

Messages
60
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
Hello all! I have a 2002 Acura RSX Type S, which currently has a little over 18,000 miles on it. From day one, it has been using oil. After about 1,000 miles, it is down about 1/4 to 1/2 quart. I use what is called for:5W-30. I took it to the dealer and the limit before they do any warranty work is more than 1 quart in 1,000 miles. They also said that this type of oil consumption was normal due to the 11:1 compression and high red-line of the motor. (7,900 RPM) What I would like to know is if you all experts think this is acceptable for a brand new motor? Also, is there anything I could do to stop the oil burning, like Lucas or Marvel Mystery Oil, or both? Someone had mentioned in another message board to do this....(cut & pasted) __________________________________________________ The next time you find that your low on oil, add one or two capfulls of Marvel Mystery Oil (use the MMO's cap to measure), and about 1/16th to 1/8th of a quart of Lucas. Fill to the top mark on the dipstick with the Castrol GTX (or whatever oil you like, so long as it's 5W30) Drive around for a 1000 miles and check the oil. It should stop eating the oil for breakfast now. If it doesn't, repeat the above, but add as much as 1/4 of a quart of Lucas. DO NOT ADD MORE THAN THAT! Once the oil consumption has gotten better, continue to use the Lucas and the MMO for two more oil changes, then stop using it. Here's what's happening with the two additives: The MMO helps polish the cylinder walls The Lucas oil stabilizer helps slow down blow-by, and it also helps keep oil in the head, preventing dry starts. It also does help the piston rings seat themselves. Basically, it's the closest thing to a break-in additive you can buy off the shelf (it can even be used as an assembly lube). Don't use STP oil treatment. It's not the same thing. Also, the reason for the small amounts of the oil stabilizer is that if you add too much to it, it will start to raise the oil pressure (it can thicken oil). The thicker oil won't flow through the engine properly since it needs 5W30. The amounts your adding is really pretty small when you consider the engine takes 5 qts of oil. So far, I've been getting promising results on my own engine, and I got great results on my old '94 Eclipse. My old Eclipse used to eat through two quarts of oil in 3000 miles time. Mind you, it never really burned it, but I was lucky to have a quart left in the crankcase when it came time for an oil change (it took almost 4qts of oil). The car had some high milage on it (211,651 when I sold it to be exact), so I did expect it to use some oil, but I thought that was on the high side. So, I tried a little more of an extreme approach: Almost 1/2 a quart of Lucas, and 1/8 a quart of MMO. Did this for about six months (which equals nearly six oil changes for me), then backed off on both fluids. Engine barely ate one quart of oil in 3000 miles after that. So far, it seems to be working on my RSX-S too. At 2000 miles, I was down 1/2 a quart. At 2900 miles, I again was down 1/2 a quart. I had my first oil change at 3000 miles. At 4000 miles I was down a quart, so I did the above, and then filled it to the top dot on the dipstick with Castrol GTX. The car's got a little over 5000 miles now. It's barely eaten any oil at all (the oil has barely moved from the top dot). Over the course of the next three oil changes, I'm going to reduce the amount of MMO and Lucas I'm adding to zero to see if it's making a difference in the oil consumption. If my experience with my Eclipse is any indicator, I'm expecting it to work out pretty well. __________________________________________________ Well there it is...true or not? Please help me out! Thanks in advance....
 

Al

Messages
19,167
Location
Elizabethtown, Pa
I doubt anything will help, but probably won't hurt. The consumption you discussed is more than I would be happy with, but not unusual. The thing about high rpm's etc. is bs. They always have some type of quasi-technical bs answer (dealers). Fact is that the rings are allowing that oil to pass whether by design (good or bad) or by improper seating-who knows. You could go with 10W-30 oil (preferably syn) or add a quart of 15W-50 to cut down consumption. Welcome to the board. [Cheers!]
 
Messages
3,683
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Well, I am not sure that you gave this engine time to break in and stop consuming oil on its own before you started to add the snake oils to it. Now you will never know if it would have reduced consumption on its own. At these few miles guess I would never consider using additives to reduce consumption. Best wishes
 
Messages
901
Location
Northern Illinois
This may seem like a no-brainer but I will throw it in anyway. Try experimenting with some different high quality oils. A long time ago I rememer seeing engines go from a qt/Km to virtually no use by switching to valvoline, for instance. Totally different now I'm sure, but maye even some synth oils could help. Good luck, RW
 
Messages
349
Location
Quebec, Canada
quote:
I doubt anything will help, but probably won't hurt. The consumption you discussed is more than I would be happy with, but not unusual. The thing about high rpm's etc. is bs. They always have some type of quasi-technical bs answer (dealers). Fact is that the rings are allowing that oil to pass whether by design (good or bad) or by improper seating-who knows.
Al, So, what you're saying is that Honda engines are improperly designed since every VTEC engine that I come across is burning oil? I think the dealer is partially correct. The high redline and high compression - I'm pretty sure - stresses the oil to the max. This is of course, if Dookie is redlining his RSX everyday. Also, the combination of running 5W30 (Dookie, dino or synthetic 5W30?) that normally comes with high NOACK % and/or low HTHS. Dookie, maybe you can fill us in on: - What type of oil are you using? - How often do you change them? - What are your daily driving habits (redlining, fast and the furious driving, etc.)? - What are your driving conditions (stop-and-go, highway, etc)? - What were your break-in procedures and how long did you stick with it? Regards, Oz
 
Messages
3,321
Location
Bolivia
As mentioned, would have to know driving habits. how much downshifting/engine breaking? How much racing? I would never add additives to a properly formulated oil. The_Oz...... What are you saying about Vtec engines? I have a 1.4 16 valve Vtec in a ford pickup with 45,000 miles with Chevron Supreme 5w30 in Tropical weather and have never added any oil between 4,000 mile changes.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,600
Location
Iowegia - USA
I would go up to a viscosity of 10W30 say Mobil 10W30 SS and try it from there. Do a used oil analysis and see if there are any wear metals that are elevated. There are no instant fixes that I am aware of, so you'll have to take it one step at a time. I would never add any aftermarket additives such as MMO, since it is a solvent and will THIN the oil. What you need I thnik is thicker oil.
 
Messages
349
Location
Quebec, Canada
quote:
The_Oz...... What are you saying about Vtec engines? I have a 1.4 16 valve Vtec in a ford pickup with 45,000 miles with Chevron Supreme 5w30 in Tropical weather and have never added any oil between 4,000 mile changes.
Widman, I'm sure you're talking about Ford Zetec. For 1) Honda never made a 1.4L VTEC engine. They start at 1.6L 2) I highly doubt you would want a torque-lacking motor in a heavy Ford pickup...unless of course, you were able to custom-fit a turbo in there to compensate & 3) You must have some serious time & money to have embarked on a project like this! [Wink] Oh yes, I forgot to mention one thing. Older VTECs used motor oil to activate a solenoid - which in turn activates the third cam lobe, therefore giving you VTEC. Rumours abound that oil loss is pretty significant if you keep hitting VTEC. Maybe, Honda addressed this problem with the newer i-VTEC, or maybe not. Again, more info needed, Dookie. Regards, Oz
 

Dookie

Thread starter
Messages
60
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
Sorry it took so long to get back. Anyway, I am using 5W-30 Valvoline dino oil. I used Mobil 1 10W-30 once and it seemed to consume even more. My usual driving habits are stop and go to and from work with very little higway driving. I live in Vegas, so it's hot here too. I always change the oil at 3,000 miles. Since MMO thins the oil, what about Lucas Oil Stabilizer? It recommends adding 1 quart and 4 quarts of the oil of my choice to my car. (5 Quart oil capacity.)
 
Messages
1,874
Location
Ocala, Florida
Dookie, As you can see, there is no one good answer for your problem. Like a good headache, there is many cures, but for each they can be different. In your case, the suggestion of lucas is one I would not normally use as it is nothing more than a bright stock oil which does not add protection but causes the oil to become sticky so in turn it slows the oil flow down a bit. No, this doesn't really kill or hurt your engine but it will not help your oil and if you were to try this in a regular situation it would affect the oils ability to clean and may cause the oil to prematurely breakdown. MMO is a basic top end lubricant moreso than a solvent. The performance it provides is very temperary and goes away when you stop using it as it basicly provides some ring sealing therefore can increase the compression a bit making the engine to appear better running. ButI suspect that with this combination of MMO and Brightstock that what would happen is it would cause the rings a little more friction in this one guys case as he was using a very limited amount, thus it may have created enough heat to cause his rings to possibly seat better?? maybe, no way to know for sure. Problem is, in your case, you may have the same problem, then it could be a slight leak through say a vavle stem seal or head gasket.(not likely but still possible). It might be wise to try some investigating to establish you have no actual mechanical problem with the engines compression around the rings. Also by pulling the plugs,you can inpect them. If you have one that is burning oil this will become evident, but also a compression and leak down test can help asure that all the rings and valves are holding properly. The engine most likely wont' show any problems then I'd consider experimenting with the different grades of oils out there. I agree that oil consumption can be reduced dramaticly just by going from one brand of oil to another as the quality does vary a great deal from one oil to another and can react differently as you saw that m1 seem to consume more than the dino in your previous experiment between the two. Also, by running a thicker oil you can see a difference as well. Myself, I would normally use a 10w30, especially where it is hot in your area. I would not jump to a synth oil for this as any engine should be able to do a 3,000 mile oil change without a problem even with a dino oil. Try something like havoline or chevron or even castrol, all of which are good dino's, but I'd try a 10w30 on which ever you chose. I personally think that honda is recommending the wrong oil/wt for this engine and maybe this is why they are experiencing the oil consumption problem. Just some thoughts and ideas, but definatly, would not recommend using those additives as they do not polish walls as the one stated. bob
 
Messages
1,933
Location
Oklahoma
Dookie, Here is my two cents.MM Oil is a good thing,in a 9N Ford Tractor in Winter [Razz] I personally would NOT use the Lucas but would not hesitate putting the Yamalube 20/40 Dino in the car,Man,it's hot where you live,I would not want to be your oil! Even though your RPM's are not really that high with piston size/weight taken into the thought of it all the oil will still take a beating in that heat. It might be best in your case to be they guy that changes oil every 3-4K instead of trying to get every last MPG and miles per change. Running a thin VI oil in high heat with repeted redlining ,,well the oil burning might at sometime in the future be the last of your worries [Wink] If you must use a synthetic here is one that might help? Mobil 1 MX4-T 10W-40 [ September 10, 2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,600
Location
Iowegia - USA
"The MMO helps polish the cylinder walls The Lucas oil stabilizer helps slow down blow-by, and it also helps keep oil in the head, preventing dry starts. It also does help the piston rings seat themselves. Basically, it's the closest thing to a break-in additive you can buy off the shelf (it can even be used as an assembly lube)." An assembly lube will wash off after a couple of minutes of oil pressure. The only thing, in my view that stabilizes the oil, is more fresh oil of the same type to enhance the additive package. MMO is a solvent in a carrier oil, and unless you know the ratios of solvents to carriers, you cannot predict the effects on the oil. I know there is a lot of opinions on so-called bore polishing, but bore polishing to me infers wear. I do not like anything polishing my bores; [Big Grin] I want minimal metal contact. If you could purchase, rent, or borrow a borescope, remove two plugs, and look into the cylinders to see if you can observe what appears to be virgin cross-hatch marks. If they are pronounced, the rings may not be broken in. I like to see worn cross hatch marks, but not bore polishing. Secondly, what about valve guides and valve stem seals? My original '86 Burb came from the factory with the wrong type of seals and consumed oil for the first 124,000 miles, even on 10W40 Synthetic. After replacing with Viton seals, the oil consumption went to zilch. The other item I would suggest is adding Schaeffer's #132 so the Moly and Antimony can fill in the voids to asist sealing. [ September 10, 2002, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
Messages
2,480
I would check out what viscosity is suggested for the same car overseas...you'll be surprised. I don't think it will be a 5-30! Engines like the Acura run like motorcycle engines..high rpms...are there any motorcycles out there that recommend 5-30? Secondly, definately use a synthetic....driving habits will have an effect...obviously driving at redline all day will burn oil in no time...
 
Messages
3,321
Location
Bolivia
The_Oz : my Ztec (or however you spell it) is a stock 1.4 liter, 16 valve. Nice little engine, peppy, economical (10 to 11 km/lt in the city). The pickup is a 1997 Ford Courier. Not like the US versions, it is about the size of a fiesta, and too low to go some places I would like to send it, but is rated at 730 kilos cargo although I have never put more than 600 plus driver. The truck is assembled in Brazil, but the parts aparently come from all over.
 

MolaKule

Staff member
Messages
21,600
Location
Iowegia - USA
Golly, if its a top compression ring, no sense using an expensive synthetic. Go up a notch or two on the viscosity and continue to use Valvoline or Pennzoil. Do not add any motor medic, motor honey, or whatever, or the rest of the rings will turn upside down as well. [Big Grin]
 
Messages
2
Location
Raleigh, NC
I have an oil chart for the Japanese Civic Type R (same engine as the RSX-S)that I found on the Honda Japan web page. It calls for 5W-30 or 5W-40 across the range from -30 to 40 degrees C. And 10W-30 from -20 C up.
 

Jay

Messages
1,607
Location
Idaho Falls, ID
Well, go ahead and experiment with different oils. Some may help. If the top ring was installed upside down you'd probably be over the 1qt/1000mi limit. With 18,000 miles on your car the rings have probably seated as much as they will. You could try pulling the head and mikeing the cylinders to see if they are in spec. That's fairly invasive, I know, but if they are out of spec then you can hand the measurements to the dealer and say, "Fix this now". The compression and leak-down test that Bob suggested is the first thing to try. [ September 11, 2002, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
 
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