motor guard

[P]

My question is in regards to a MOTOR OIL BYPASS FILTER:

Is it acceptable to plumb a BYPASS FILTER with the pressure line from a SANDWICH ADAPTER(with one plugged port) and the return line to the OIL PRESSURE PORT?

In this configuration does it need an ORIFICE to restrict the flow?

 

[RalphPWood]

The sandwich adapter depends on a pressure drop thru the adapter. If it is a single port sandwich adapter there is no pressure drop. The oil is returned to a place where there is no pressure. You can return the oil to a pressurized place as long as it is less than the main oil pressure. A sandwich adapter such as the Perma-Cool can be drilled to reduce the pressure drop.
I drilled a universal 189 sandwich adapter 7/32" for a Cummins 5.9. I had to make the adapter fit the 1"-16 threads. You could drill enough holes to eliminate the resistance, plug one port and return the clean oil anywhere you want. If the filter heats up oil is flowing thru it. The pressure at the adapter is off the main oil supply. If the return point is the same it won't work. You need a least 2 PSI pressure difference.

Ralph

 

[P]

Ralph, I just want to be sure about what your saying.

Would it be acceptable to plumb the BYPASS FILTER with the pressure side from a SANDWICH ADAPTER (with one port plugged) and the return side to the OIL PRESSURE PORT(where the oil pressure sensor is located) since the pressure drop will be greater than 2psi when the full flow filter is not in bypass mode?

If this is possible, will an orifice be needed?

Is there a SANDWICH ADAPTER that can be used in this situation where I won't have to drill any holes in it?

 

[RalphPWood]

I don't see any advantages to hooking it up with the return going to the oil pressure switch. The pressure should be the same at the oil pressure switch as at the sandwich adapter. The reason you use an orifice is so you don't get too much flow thru the bypass filter. When you are using both ports of a sandwich adapter you don't need an orifice. My little engines don't need a relief hole drilled in the sandwich adapter. To be safe I drill the adapter on large engines. There are two ports on these adapters and I use them both. If my oil pressure is good and the Motor Guard is heating up I am in hog heaven.
The slower the flow thru the Motor Guard or any submicronic filter the better the cleaning.

Ralph

 

[P]

Ralph,

Thanks for responding to my post.

Isn't the pressure at the oem oil pressure port the oil pressure to the engine AFTER THE FULL FLOW FILTER and the pressure at the ports of the sandwich adapter the oil pressure BEFORE THE FULL FLOW FILTER?

If yes, then there would have to be greater than 2psi difference between the inlet and outlet of the full flow filter with the bypass valve shut.

 

[fasty]

Before the full flow filter. I have MG-30 on other vehicle using Perma-Cool sandwich adapter with FleetGuard LT3487. No problem the oil pressure showing 40psi and didn't show any oil pressure loss. Because Perma-Cool sandwich adapter has the bypass hole when it really needed and it will open the hole to keep up with the oil pressure into the engine.

quote:

---

Originally posted by P:

Isn't the pressure at the oem oil pressure port the oil pressure to the engine AFTER THE FULL FLOW FILTER and the pressure at the ports of the sandwich adapter the oil pressure BEFORE THE FULL FLOW FILTER?

If yes, then there would have to be greater than 2psi difference between the inlet and outlet of the full flow filter with the bypass valve shut.

---

 

[P]

I have a GM 350 V8.

Isn't my oem oil pressure gauge reading the oil pressure AFTER THE FULL FLOW FILTER?

 

[P]

I have a GM 305 V8 not a 350.

My question is the same.

 

[Gary Allan]

I think that your figuring that the filter, either in bypass or not ..will have enough pressure drop BEFORE the pressure sender "sees" the pressure. You wnat to return the shunted oil there, instead of playing around with hollow bolts and what not.

I don't think your filters have a bypass valve in them. I think that your block has an internal bypass valve.

Anyway ..I think you're correct in your thinking ..it's just a VERY NOVEL way of doing this. You're effectively placing the Motor Guard and the full flow in parallel to the oil pressure switch.

I think you can do this. I would still recommend, as Ralph said, drilling a hole in the Permacool sandwich adapter. If you've seen one ..you see a very small hole for the oil to 'bypass' the (normally) oil cooler. This will be the ONLY pathway, other than what can be transferred via the Motor Guard via the 1/8" port for the pressure switch.

The fact is, in your way of doing this, you can drill a 1/2" hole in the Permacool and still have this work. The full flow filter media will create enough of a drop across it to allow ample flow through the Motor Guard. I don't think that there is a filter made that drops less than 2 psi after warm up.

You're looking for a Frantz style adapter. It merely provides an outlet port. That should be all you need for your bypass to work in your manner, IMHO.

 

[mjo]

It sounds like a great idea since the flow from the BP filter should flow into the engine and not drain into the oil pan. This would be a good thing for engine startup (except when you have a brand new dry TP roll). I'm also kinda sceptical. The restrictor orifice's job is to restrict flow by lowering pressure. Would there be too high a pressure in the Frantz filter itself? How high of a pressure can the Frantz canister and gasket take?

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

I'm also kinda sceptical. The restrictor orifice's job is to restrict flow by lowering pressure. Would there be too high a pressure in the Frantz filter itself? How high of a pressure can the Frantz canister and gasket take?

---

Help me sort through this and tell me where I may be going off track.

Normally, when using a sandwich adapter, you use the (normally) cooler ports and effectively "FORCE" a decent pressure differential between the ff and the BP filter. That is you restrict the oil pump's output before it ever "sees" the ff. The gross majority of the flow goes to the full flow ..but the pressure dissapated in the manipulation of the setup has to somewhat reduce downstream pressure (Ralph has verified this in that he has, at times or in some applications, had to enlarge the internal bypass opening to restore "normal - point of sender" pressure). In this application/installation, no restriction to the oil FF is employed. The only inducement for flow to the bypass is the pressure drop across the ff media and that flow will go into a pressurized return route. This effectively places the BP and FF in parallel and flow will be distributed between them based souly on the resistance that they present to the oil flow. If the BP has 10X the resistance ..it will have 1/10th the flow (this resistance will vary for both filters depending on oil temp and subsequent viscosity).

The typical sandwich adapter is a "series-parallel" setup where the oil pump "sees" a parallel circuit of the restrictive bypass valve in the adapter and the BP filter first ..THEN the resultant distributed flow (still 100%) is routed through the full flow. As far as in terms of "pressure dissapated" ..this represents more inline resistance than the proposed installation. In this there HAS to be less resistance to oil flow than the FF alone.

In short, if the Frantz or Motor Guard type installation doesn't "pop its top" in the typical sandwich adaptor setup ..it should see even less "stress" in this installation.

So ..it will, IMHO, "work". The only question is if this will produce enough flow through the bp filter.

Does anyone see anything wrong with my reasoning (yes, I'm really asking if you think I've missed something.)

 

[P]

I think that adequate flow through the bypass filter would have a lot to do with whether or not it has an orifice.

Ralph has said that 'when you are using both ports of a sandwich adapter you don't need and orifice'(earlier post)

So in the bypass filter setup where the pressure side is from the sandwich adapter port and the return is to the oem oil pressure port does it need an ORIFICE?

I'm thinking it has a lot to do with the MAXIMUM AND MINIMUM DIFFERENTIAL PRESSURES ACROSS THE FULL FLOW FILTER WHEN THE OIL IS HOT AND COLD.

 

[RalphPWood]

I started with the Frantz two port sandwich adapter used with the Frantz oil cleaner. The Frantz adater allowed the clean oil to baypass the full flow filter. For use with the Frantz two port sandwich adapter you were sent a Frantz with no restrictor in the filter. As a Frantz dealer I knew that occasionally someone would notice that the oil pressure wasn't as high and someone would complain about leakage at the gasket. I didn't have any problems with my own equipment. At the time all Frantz oil cleaners had the orifice at the outlet.
I sent some MG-30's to the Bahamas for use with the Perma-Cool 181 sandwich adapters. They were Japanese diesel engines. It was noticed that one engine didn't have the oil pressure it had before. I told him the engine needed more oil than the relief valve in the adapter could handle. He drilled a 1/4" relief port to help the relief valve. That brought the oil pressure up but caused another problem. The Motor Guard wouldn't heat up. He drilled a 1/8" relief and it worked fine. You can get a hugh amount of oil thru the relief valve. I tried drilling a 1/4" relief in the universal adapter on my Subaru Legacy 4 cylinder. It worked but it took a long time for the Motor Guard to heat up. The guy in the Bahamas just bought 5 more for generators on a ship. They have Caterpillar engines. Guys like him are why I brought in the big Fleetguard LF 750 filters. They use the LF 750A which use shredded newspapers in a steel canister. Similar to the old bypass filters that they put on cars before the less effective full flow filters came out in the fifties. I convert them to use two rolls of paper towels and three rolls of TP. That is a 750 HP diesel rated filter.
I also got in a smaller LF 500 filter which takes two rolls of paper towels. They will need to be hooked up in the conventional way. It probably wouldn't be good to pump a four gallon filter full of air into the oil system. The big filters have the orifice at the outlet. I will put a 1/16" orifice at the inlet. On a small engine the filter would take all of the oil pressure from the system until the filter filled and hit resistance from the stock orifice.
The GM engines are a different animal. The Perma-Cool adapters for them may not have a relief valve such as the 185 for the 350 and 305 engines. The only oil the filter can get is what comes from the Motor Guard. Most of the oil the engine needs goes thru the stock relief valve in the filter mount bypassing both filters. This converts the engine to a straight bypass system. Some convert the system to a Ford type system by plugging the relief valve with a Perma-Cool relief valve plug and using the universal adapter and a Ford type filter. It was common for Frantz and Motor Guard to toss the full flow filter and use a plate that Motor Guard called a converter to convert back to a straight bypass system like a 53 Chevy. I put a Frantz on a tow rig for a racing company about 1965 using the adapter. The oil was beautiful at 350,000 miles. I started selling the Motor Guard in 1966. He helped me sell a lot of filters. He was sponsored by Chevrolet. The old M-100's had a working pressure rating of 300 psi. the M-30 is stronger and rated at 125 psi; figure that one out. I think they want a big safety margin. Compressed air can kill you, It would take a gorilla to turn the tee handle at 125 psi. Some filters are dangerous and leak at 125 psi.

Ralph

 

[P]

Franz says on their website that the flow thru their bypass filter is 1 qt/min for 30wt oil at 180F and 30psi. The orifice size is 1/16"

Motor guard says on their website that the flow thru the M30 is 2qts/min for 30wt oil at 160F and 50 psi. The orifice is 1/16"

So, to be on the safe side, I think a 1/16" orifice would be needed on a bypass filter setup between the sandwich filter and oem pressure port. The differential pressure between the pressure and return sides is always less than 30-50 psi and greater than 2psi---Ralph says you need "at least 2psi" for the motor guard to work.

 

[Gary Allan]

Simple solution:

Install YOUR way with restrictor orifice. If the bypass heats up ...fine ..you're done. If it doesn't heat up ...remove orifice.

 

[oldman]

P

what the psi is coming or going from My Motor Guard, but, hooked it up the way RalphPWood told me to, and it just keeps cleaning the oil everytime I drive.

to Ralph.

 

[P]

Gary,

Wouldn't it be better to SLIGHTLY enlarge the orifice and see if the bypass filter heats up?
If not, then keep enlarging it INCREMENTALLY until it does?

I'm thinking that if you remove the orifice that there might be TO MUCH flow--Ralph says the reason they have an orifice in bypass filters is to keep the flow low---I'm assuming 2 quarts/min is around the maximum that should occur--since this is what a motor guard m30 has at 50 psi, 160F with 30wt oil.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

---

Wouldn't it be better to SLIGHTLY enlarge the orifice and see if the bypass filter heats up?
If not, then keep enlarging it INCREMENTALLY until it does?

I'm thinking that if you remove the orifice that there might be TOO MUCH flow--Ralph says the reason they have an orifice in bypass filters is to keep the flow low---I'm assuming 2 quarts/min is around the maximum that should occur--since this is what a motor guard m30 has at 50 psi, 160F with 30wt oil.

---

But that's in a "back to the pan" installation. You're not doing that. You aren't truly "bypassing" the oil circuit. You're giving it a parallel pathway to the sender point. Your flow is going into a pressurized environment ..not your valve cover. The ff is going to have the lion's share of the flow ..and that flow will naturally divide based on the resistance it 'sees' from the filters. Both filters will see the same pressure.
Both filters, when plumbed your way, will see the exact same pressure drop between the oil pump and the sender unit (your point of reference) ..only the flow will be different between them.


Look at it this way. Suppose you didn't use a TP or PT element in the MG canister ..and used 1/2" (or 4 FOOT diameter)lines ..and didn't reduce them until it got to the sending unit ...what's the WORST thing that can happen in terms of flow? You bypassed the ff oil filter? Now just throw a roll of TP in and what do you have?? ...the oil pump seeing two paths for the flow to the sender ..one high resistance ..one low resistance. The flow naturally divides between them. Suppose instead of installing a MG ..you installed a remote ff filter mount instead?? The oil flow would then have two ff filters for acess to the point of the sender ...the only difference in the flow rate ..would be the resistance presented by the 1/8" sender fitting.

Do you see what I mean?? I merely suggested trying it without modifying the thing to see if it provides acceptable flow for your needs ...but I see no need for the orifice. If anything ..I think you'll need to use the added resistance of the Permacool poppet bypass valve to create enough pressure differentail to induce the require, acceptable, flow.

Wait a minute

..are you referring to the BYPASS VALVE on the PERMACOOL sandwich adaper????

YES!!! Definitely incrementally open that up. I would just remove it..period. You may have to open it up even MORE. You would want to open a little as possible until your sender pressure is restored to "before installation" pressure level.

I was thinking (yeah, right) ..that many bypass filters (Frantz for one and I assumed MG) has a 1/16 (or something) restrictor orifice in the filter housing. This would not be necessary for your installation.

 

[keith]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
I was thinking (yeah, right) ..that many bypass filters (Frantz for one and I assumed MG) has a 1/16 (or something) restrictor orifice in the filter housing. This would not be necessary for your installation.

---

My Frantz has no restriction on the main part of the canister, but has a threaded insert that has the small bore hole. It looks even smaller than 1/16" but I didn't measure it. You could remove the insert completely or drill the hole bigger.

Interesting discussion nonetheless. The higher resistance of the TP versus the FF might be enough to regulate the bypass flow to what you desire, and the bypass restrictor may be redundant. I don't think you will know until you try it.

 

[P]

Gary,

My main concern besides getting enough flow thru the bypass filter is not getting TO MUCH FLOW.
Quoting Ralph "The reason you use an orifice is so you don't get to much flow thru the bypass filter". He was replying to my post so I assume he was referring to MY bypass filter setup and not just the common high pressure -no pressure return bypass filter setup.

I would agree with you on not needing an orifice in the bypass filter IF THE DIFFERENTIAL PRESSURE BETWEEN THE PRESSURE AND RETURN OF THE BYPASS FILTER in my setup WAS THE SAME AS THE DIFFERENTIAL PRESSURE BETWEEN THE INLET AND OUTLET PORTS IN THE SANDWICH ADAPTER as in Ralph's common setup with the motor guard M30

Using a permacool sandwich adapter with a relief valve as in Ralph's common setup with the m30 the pressure differential would be about 2psi(Ralph said in a reply to FRANZ TRANNY FILTER POST that "the relief valve will open at about 2psi" for a Permacool 771-181 sandwich adapter)
This had got to be the minimum differential pressure where no orifice is needed in a bypass filter. If he drills additional holes in it the differential pressure changes--how much I don't know.

If someone was to speculate, what would be the maximum pressure encountered in the outlet port of a PERMACOOL SANDWICH ADAPTER WITH A RELIEF VALVE with possibly additional bypass holes drilled in it?--With a motor guard m30 hooked up to the inlet and outlet ports with no orifice (I'm not sure if this last part with the m30 is needed to answer the question)