Most Sludge Resistant Oil?

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I just came accros this post on a Toyota forum.

"All Corolla engines have had these gears since 1988. But no Corolla engine has ever had a sludge problem. Indeed there was a guy on this forum just last week that boasted of going 10,000 - 30,000 miles without changing the oil on his 1989 Corolla - yet he still got 200,000 miles of life out of the engine."
 
Here is exactly what the 1989 Corolla owner reported:

"Bought my '89 rolla from Avis, the leasing company. It had
25k miles on it from one year's use and they Never Changed the Oil.
I got 210k miles out of it afterwards with changes varying from
4k to 5.5k til the last 35k. I wish I had kept that car now, it still
ran great at 210k and I didn't change the oil the last 35k miles.
Just topped it off as it leaked a little and burned a little, about 1
quart every 3-4k."

So we see that even though Toyota has been using this gear
driven double overhead camshaft design since the late 1980's
owners that have NOT been changing their dino oil every 3-4,000
miles have still gotten 200,000 + miles out of their engines.
 
quote:

So we see that even though Toyota has been using this gear
driven double overhead camshaft design since the late 1980's
owners that have NOT been changing their dino oil every 3-4,000
miles have still gotten 200,000 + miles out of their engines.

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Originally posted by BOBISTHEOILGUY:

(snip
...and many newer cars also started to pack the engines in tighter places putting more demand on the oil due to less air flow across the engine.

***

I'm not sure this is a factor. Most of the sludge problems have been in the Sienna vans, which have more space in the engine bay.

This is a generalization, (meaning there are many exceptions) but could it be that the van owners tend to minimize maintenance or put it off because the owners are often so busy that time isn't made for it?

Many who complained of sludge were/are unable to come up with a service history, so unproductive confrontational relationships with dealers developed(s) and the scope of the problem got blown out of proportion.

Toyota's extended warranty over this is very generous and it seems strange that some continue to try to exploit the issue.
 
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here - the gear theory sounds plausible - but I will admit this is the first BB were I read this (but I do get lots of true firsts here, too!).

I (barely) remember reading that in the Toyota V6's something about a heat issue with oil galleys really near exhaust and exhaust temps - mind you this could be something I dreamed up - where was that article.....let me search....
 
Written by yours truly - but sorta/kinda quoting an Amsoil newletter

Paul's edit => So sorry for the link - I will dig the Serviceline up - it may be buried at home somewhere....I'm interested in rereading the article.

"Toyota Owners Discover Sludging Problems"

1) Toyota has NOT admitted to the problem or that it is a design flaw.
2) Greater than 3000 people have reported the problem and many more have engine problems. (and almost all these people changed the oil at reg. intervals)
3) Believed to be related smaller coolant passages,hotter head temps, "lifter bucket" that builds sludge underneath from the higher temps - eventually this crap gets squeezed into the combustion chamber.
4) According to the ASE master tech. (Larry Perry, Orlando FL) that has diagnosed and fixed many of these cars, he has never seen it happen (or happen again) in a car running 100% synthetic oil.
____________________________________________
THIS is short but slightly interesting - This has a very interesting comment about "dangerous amounts of gasoline" in the engine oil......

[ November 26, 2002, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
 
Those are helical cut gears which are unlike a motorcycle transmission ,, only some of the motorcycle designs use a helical gear on the clutch basket to reduce noise. Others use a straight cut and make for a distintive whine noise ,,all use straight cut transmission gears.I believe the helical to have a tad bit less mesh than a straight cut ot spur type gear. The gears will have more friction which will tend to heat up the cams but it is hard to tell if the gears are aluminum riveted on a steel billet or a proferal iron billet core,if aluminum not so bad a deal other than some shear of the oil,,the old Chevy and Ford inline sixes had gear driven cams but they also had 5 quart sumps and EPA causing the cam timing of the exhaust lobe centerline in relation to the crankshaft to be upwards of 118 to 126 degrees " rotational " that creates tremendous heat in the exhaust valve area was not an issue. Cam timing plays a major role when emmisions are concerned and the relative high Lobe Center Angle of the timing and the ensuing higher exhaust lobe centerline really is hard on the oil by heating the valve springs and seat area around the exhaust and the oil takes a good hit by cooling these parts. Also it looks like the oil sits in the lifter bucket for the most part and plain old gets ate up. These are just some immediate problems I see with ths motor,,some analysis I have seen showed glycol meaning to me that at least some of the motors,not all could have porousity problems but don't carve that in stone.
Just in general if the motor held more oil,the timing of the cams could be advanced to reduce heat and still maintain a good emmissions level without excessive overlap,the oil could drain back better by some means,the gears were not throwing oil all over the place interfering with draining back to pan efficiently it would help matters but in that they sold this motor to the USA Consumer that usualy uses a dino oil and most Toyota owners I have had dealings with stay with that owners manuals recommendations and use dino oils therein lays another problem

That larger oil pick up fix is a joke to me imo,,it shows to have plenty of oil up top,,I would think though not all these motors are in the same condition the pictured one is.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Pablo:
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing here - the gear theory sounds plausible - but I will admit this is the first BB were I read this (but I do get lots of true firsts here, too!).

I (barely) remember reading that in the Toyota V6's something about a heat issue with oil galleys really near exhaust and exhaust temps - mind you this could be something I dreamed up - where was that article.....let me search....


It is a combination of things that make this a problem for them. Heat, from lack of air flow, lower amount of oil sump capacity, small areas recessed on the top of the head that tends to hold small amounts of oil therefore can cook the oil, and the biggy, gears meshing causing oil to be squeezed thus putting more demand on the small amount of oil and essentially wearing out the vi improvers. This was made evident by oil analysis from 2,000 miles to 4,000 miles all of which showed to oil to be dropped in viscosity by that amount of mileage.

As for the gears, where you have sliding surfaces, no matter what type of gear, you have oil being squeezed. There is different sizes of gears but non the less, each gear has two mating surfaces and both will produce a shearing force with oil between them, no matter if straight, helical or hypoid, all provide surfaces that produce torque and high amount of extreme pressures which is not produced in any other engine except in the oil pump which is very minimal due to it's load where the head has all those valve springs,cams and valves to work against itself.
 
quote:

Originally posted by slider:
***

I'm not sure this is a factor. Most of the sludge problems have been in the Sienna vans, which have more space in the engine bay.

This is a generalization, (meaning there are many exceptions) but could it be that the van owners tend to minimize maintenance or put it off because the owners are often so busy that time isn't made for it?

Many who complained of sludge were/are unable to come up with a service history, so unproductive confrontational relationships with dealers developed(s) and the scope of the problem got blown out of proportion.

Toyota's extended warranty over this is very generous and it seems strange that some continue to try to exploit the issue.[/QB]

Slider,

I'm glad you started with the disclaimer "I'm not sure".

Look at the nitration numbers on UOA for Camry V6's on this site. Then ask someone who knows about the problem in these engines, like Terry Dyson. I think Terry said localized "hot spots" cause some of the problem. And yes it is a problem, its not in our imaginations. It is managable and can be adjusted for by using higher quality oils or more frequent drain intervals. I like my Camry, but I know I can't go 10-12K on Mobil 1 like my buddy with the Lexus V-8 engine. I accept that and don't mind. But don't tell us its not a problem.
 
And the Lexus V8 uses the same bucket lifters and meshed camshaft gear design as your Camry V6.
Yet the Lexus does not have oil breakdown / sludge problems.

So I believe the Toyota tech is right that has explained the PVC system does an indequate job on the V6. I understand Toyota has modified the PVC system on the newest V6 Camrys to try and fix this inadequacy.
 
Originally posted by monarch:
[QB]And the Lexus V8 uses the same bucket lifters and meshed camshaft gear design as your Camry V6.
Yet the Lexus does not have oil breakdown / sludge problems.

***

Does that V8 have an iron block?
 
quote:

Originally posted by monarch:
And the Lexus V8 uses the same bucket lifters and meshed camshaft gear design as your Camry V6.
Yet the Lexus does not have oil breakdown / sludge problems.

.


Is that right? Guess you haven't seen all of the sludged engines yet. Also, how many quarts of oil does that v8 hold? BTW, There hasn't been any TSB's at toyota for replacement of pcv for upgrade on sludged engines.If so, get me the TSB # and PROVE YOUR POINT before driving us
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with all this heresay from someone that is either leading you on
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or has no idea what he's talking about.
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So far you have brought nothing to the table on how the oil is going from a 30wt to a 20wt inside of 4,000 miles with a bad pcv.
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[ November 26, 2002, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Monarch,

If you're quoting me about the Lexus V8...

What I was trying to say is that the V8 is able to run extended drain intervals. I don't think I can with the Camry V6. I don't know if it has an iron block.

BTW, I just got my buddy (with the V8) to send in a sample of oil to Schaeffers. Should have the sample back in a couple of weeks.

[ November 26, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by buster:
I just came accros this post on a Toyota forum.

"All Corolla engines have had these gears since 1988. But no Corolla engine has ever had a sludge problem. Indeed there was a guy on this forum just last week that boasted of going 10,000 - 30,000 miles without changing the oil on his 1989 Corolla - yet he still got 200,000 miles of life out of the engine."


Your friends on the Toyota forum are pulling a fast one on you. I too have owned a 91 Corolla. But it was a single cam. Some Corolla's had the double cam. It was very easy on oil. My 2001 Camry V6 is harder on oil. It changes color much sooner (unscientific I know). But the fact is a single overhead cam is different than a DOHC.

Keep in mind that the latest engines have been modified to be LEV. They are made to heat up faster for the government emission cycle.

[ November 26, 2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: jjbula ]
 
The Toyota & Lexus 4.7 liter V8s hold 6.5 quarts of oil. They have a timing belt and gear drive to the other camshaft on each head. The V8 will usually be turning at lower rpms than most fours while traveling at the same speed, so may be doing less damage to the oil in those slower-turning cam drive gears. The block is iron.

Ken
 
To Ken: Yes the Toyota & Lexus 4.7 V8's have a timing belt and gear
drive to the other camshaft on each head. But so do the fast spinning
1988-1997 Corolla 4 cylinder engines which were not sludge prone.
Example: My 1989 Corolla engine is geared to turn at 3450 rpm at 75 MPH
whereas a Lexus is geared to turn around 2500 rpm at 75 MPH.
So in my opinion this cast doubt on the "camshaft gears is damaging
the oil" theory.

In the 1998-2003 Corolla a timing chain and aluminum block
was used in place of the previous timing belt design and iron block
design yet these newest engines have not been susceptible to sludge.
So I tend to believe the Toyota Technician who stated on the
Corolland forum that Corolla motors don't get sludge because their
PVC systems are more efficient than the Camry / Avalon / Sienna V6
and 4 cylinder motors

It will be interesting to see if the PVC system modifications Toyota
made to the 2002 Camry / Avalon / Sienna V6 and 4 cylinder motors
will be effective in preventing sludge. I drove 3900 miles last summer
in a rented 2002 4 cylinder Camry and did not notice signs of severe
oil darkening or deterioration.
 
quote:

Originally posted by monarch:
To Ken: Yes the Toyota & Lexus 4.7 V8's have a timing belt and gear
drive to the other camshaft on each head. But so do the fast spinning
1988-1997 Corolla 4 cylinder engines which were not sludge prone.
Example: My 1989 Corolla engine is geared to turn at 3450 rpm at 75 MPH
whereas a Lexus is geared to turn around 2500 rpm at 75 MPH.
So in my opinion this cast doubt on the "camshaft gears is damaging
the oil" theory.

In the 1998-2003 Corolla a timing chain and aluminum block
was used in place of the previous timing belt design and iron block
design yet these newest engines have not been susceptible to sludge.
So I tend to believe the Toyota Technician who stated on the
Corolland forum that Corolla motors don't get sludge because their
PVC systems are more efficient than the Camry / Avalon / Sienna V6
and 4 cylinder motors

It will be interesting to see if the PVC system modifications Toyota
made to the 2002 Camry / Avalon / Sienna V6 and 4 cylinder motors
will be effective in preventing sludge. I drove 3900 miles last summer
in a rented 2002 4 cylinder Camry and did not notice signs of severe
oil darkening or deterioration.


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You're slower than I thought! It's very obvious you don't have much mechanical experience especially when it comes to lubrication as most mechanics have no idea how oil actually works. That's what I do for a living, going around to shops and educating mechanics on basic lubrication fundimentals, as quite a few of us do. I'll bet your technician and raise you one as I have two ase master mechanic toyota certified techs that I have worked hand in hand with for quite some time and you are just completely missing the point. Because of this, It is apparent you really are not here to learn nor have much of an open mind as I have asked you several times how does a pcv cause an oil to go from a 30wt to a 20wt inside of 4,000 miles? I'll even give you time to goto your technician and ask him for that answer and I can assure you, he will have no idea what you are talking about. Until you can answer that question, I am not even going to waste my time on you anymore, and let me assure you, it ain't possible to shear an oil down with a pcv inside of 4,000 miles so with ACTUAL OIL ANALYSIS provided by OIL LABS, there is NO GUESS WORK on what was going on with the oil unlike this mechanic HAS NO analysis or basis for his conclusion other than what he might think.

BTW, TSB's are sent out to all toyota service centers when a problem such as what you're stating so to ensure that all techs are on the same page when it comes to repair.

[ November 26, 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Bob wrote:
> how does a pcv cause an oil to go from a 30wt to a 20wt inside
> of 4,000 miles?

I don't know, but you have said that because of this loss of viscosity:

"the oil couldn't cool as well so the engine would begin running hotter
which would heat the oil and cause the oil to cook which would tend
to burn off and increase in viscosity or thicken."

and you made the following additional points:

1. the SJ oils introduced in 1996 have less antiwear additives and a lower
base oil quality.

2. "many newer cars also started to pack the engines in tighter places
putting more demand on the oil due to less air flow across the engine."

3. "toyota extended drain intervals from 3k to 5/7500" "anyone that changed
their oil at 3k intervals, had no evidence of sludge whatsoever."

Bob, what I don't understand is that if all the above is true, why
was sludge happening only on the Toyota S (Camry) series 4 cylinder
engine and M (Camry / Sienna van) series V6 engines? Why not also
the Z (Corolla) and R Tacoma) series 4 cylinders which also use the
same cam gear design and bucket lifters? In other words, lots and lots
of Corolla and Tacoma owners used 5000 - 7500 mile 5W-30 dino change
intervals, yet still did not get sludge and still sailed onto 200,000 miles or
more without a problem.

The Toyota technician on the Corolland forum has explained the reason the Corolla and Tacoma engines don't get sludge is because
they have a more efficient PVC system design than the Camry / Avalon / Sienna Van S and M series motors.
 
Quoted by Monark,
Bob, what I don't understand is that if all the above is true, why was sludge happening only on the Toyota S (Camry) series 4 cylinder
engine and M (Camry / Sienna van) series V6 engines? Why not also the Z (Corolla) and R Tacoma) series 4 cylinders which also use the
same cam gear design and bucket lifters? In other words, lots and lots of Corolla and Tacoma owners used 5000 - 7500 mile 5W-30 dino change
intervals, yet still did not get sludge and still sailed onto 200,000 miles or more without a problem


Thanks, now that you have made reference to my comments, I'll explain more on this..

First, let me say that after your post, I decided to call Bob who is the Master Toyota tech which also means he is a Master ASE tech. In discussing this with him as he has been one of the tech's I have worked with for well over 8 months on this problem here's his exact words on the techs comments for pcv problems.

"He's full of it like a thanksgiving turkey"

His words not mine. Anyway, I agree. What he(bob) said was there has been no official/unofficial word on the pcv being the cause. A point he brought out made good sense because Toyota is paying a boat load of money to repair these engines and if the pcv was the problem, it would stand to reason to spend 10.00 on this part and line everyone up and change them all out. I agree. Now, the other point, He stated that when they do an SPA replacement, they replace the valve cover and with that comes a new pcv. He checked it against the old ones, and the replacements part number is the SAME EXACT VALVE.

Another point is, the pcv valve will not shear the oil down to a 20w from a 30wt. When or if it clogs, it first creates pressure in the crankcase. This will cause oil to pass by the rings and seals, causing smoking conditions and leaks. It can cause the engine to consume oil thus eventually if not replace exacerbate the demand on the oil and ultimately possibly cause sludge BUT, it would take a long time for this problem to get to that level and engines coming in between 10 and 15,000 miles with sludge is not a candidate for this type of sludged condition.

He also stated that unofficially, he has heard they are going to change their recommendation of oil changes from the 5-7500 miles to the 3-5000 miles and the manual also includes "except in extreme conditions" but does not elaborate on what extreme conditions mean.

Yes the z model cor engines have sludge issues also but is not covered in the SPA campaign, so you don't hear as much about them as you do the others. As for the Tacoma's, their oil sump capacity and air flow across the engine is much different than the other cars/van. Having more oil will in fact allow the oil to last longer as it takes longer before that oil reaches to the offending area thus it doesn't strain the oil as often thereby allowing the oil to last longer drains.

There is no debate, there isn't that many in %'s that is sludged in comparison to those that are. So this also should point to the fact it isn't the pcv because if it were the problem, ALL of them would have the same problem. The ONLY FACTOR that has been consistent in this problem is IMPROPER DRAIN INTERVALS. EVERY sludged engine can be linked to drain intervals of 5k+ miles on conventional dino oil. There is NOT ONE SLUDGED engine that has been drained under 4,000 miles. This is the key problem. The oil drain intervals for these engines recommended by toyota is too long for the standard conventional oils. To get those drain intervals recommended by toyota, you must use an oil that is highly shear stable. So, if you DO find people not sludging up their engine doing 5-7500 mile drains, it is because of the TYPE of oil they are using. It will not be the standard conventional dino.

One last point to mention, Since this problem has become apparent, the newer class GF-3 oils will help in reducing sludge issues because it is more resistant to sludge as opposed to the previous oil group of SJ. This in conjunction of lower oil drain intervals will eliminate the problem and not replacing the pcv.

Something else I forgot to mention is that the drain interval issue, showing oil shearing down to a lower viscosity was all established by using oil analysis. See what kind of tests did he do to establish his argument on pcv problem.

I think the engineers at toyota agree with me that the oil is overtaxed by the extended drain intervals.

Having recieved a nice seiko mens bracelet watch from coporate out of torance ca makes me think they are appreciative for the research I have done and helped establish that the engine is not faulty but a good design and that education for the public on oil drain cylces is very important and lacking in this case.

I think mis leading the public as the cause being a faulty component on the engine is not a good thing as it isn't true based on and established by you and him both since we all agree that more are not sludged than are yet all run the same exact supposed failing components.

[ November 27, 2002, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
 
Bob,

My 2.4L tacoma engine has DOHC's that are chain driven ...there is also a gear drive on the end of one of the cams that is clearly visible through the oil filler cap opening. This engine has solid, bucket type lifters with replaceable shim adjustors. This truck has a 5 speed and I drive the wheels off of it, as there is a noticable increase in power between 3000 and 4000 rpms.

I can take the same Amsoil formulation I'd run in the Toyota V-6; run it twice as long in my truck and it will degrade less:

Toyota V-6 w/ Amsoil 0w-30 - 7,200 miles:

oxidation, 22%
nitration, 57%
TBN, 6.0
viscosity @ 100C, 9.9 Cst

Toyota 2.4L w/ Amsoil 0w-30 - 12,000 miles:

oxidation, 24%
nitration, 40%
TBN, 8.4
viscosity @ 100C, 11.1 Cst

Toyota 2.4L w/ Amsoil Series 3000 - 15,000 miles:

oxidation, 20%
nitration, 50%
TBN, 7.2
viscosity @ 100C, 12.1 Cst

So I do think there are differences in the effectiveness of the PCV systems between these various Toyota engine designs. I think some of the high nitration in the V-6 engines is due to the fact that the NOx that blows by the pistons isn't being sucked out rapidly enough. These NOx gases are then dissolved into the crankcase oil.
 
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