Would there be a difference between M1 and Amsoil 0w-30 in terms of sludge prevention? Right now I'm running Amsoil 0w-30, supposedly the best oil on the market and possibly 5yrs ahead of the competition...he he. But I am thinking of going back to M1, thanks to the knowledgable peole on this board, but want to make sure M1 is as sludge resistant bc I drive a Toyota. I change the oil frequently enough but I want to be sure bc I plan on squezzing 200K + miles out of it. thanks
Most Sludge Resistant Oil?
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You answered your question in two other posts stating you do not have the Toyota motor that sludges up. Now you have said you change oil frequently answering another question,,,guessing the Mobil will be just fine if you change back to it for both your motor and your pocket book,,
No one is positive if 01 Corolla engines don't have sludge problems. I am assuming that based on my frequent changes and engine, I won't have any problems, but I can't be certain. Amsoil has been telling me, along with Toyota, to cut the interval changes down. How much? Toyota says 5-6K with Synthetic, Amsoil doesnt give a number. I agree and dont' think Amsoil will be worth it if I change it so soon. Thanks
[ November 24, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
[ November 24, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
MolaKule
Staff member
IMHO, the two oils are a toss-up. M1 is of course, a bit cheaper.
Used Oil Analysis will tell you how the oils are holding up.
Used Oil Analysis will tell you how the oils are holding up.
Since 1975 Toyota owners have been racking up
400,000 - 700,000 overhaul free miles using ordinary dino oil. Only the '97-'02 V6 engine and '97 -'01 4 cylinder engines used in bigger models like the Camry & Sienna van are more sensitive to sludge buildup than Toyota engines of the past. For these sensitive engines, Toyota dealership technicians advise changing the dino oil every 3000-5000 miles or synthetic oil every 5000-7500 miles.
Neither Mobil or Amsoil has ever been willing to show us real world data that proves their synthetics subtantially reduce engine wear compared to dino oils. I mean show us the insides of two identical engines after 400,000 miles - one run on dino and the other run on synthetic.
The likely reason ALL the synthetic oil companies
hide this information from the public is because neither the dino nor the synthetic oil engine would be badly worn after 400,000 miles (Asian car and European car engines, that is). And that would
be an embarrassment.
Mobil did once test two Quad 4 Oldsmobile engines for 200,000 miles and said the dino engine had more wear, but never said how much more (possibly because it was still in good condition after 200,000 miles on dino oil).
400,000 - 700,000 overhaul free miles using ordinary dino oil. Only the '97-'02 V6 engine and '97 -'01 4 cylinder engines used in bigger models like the Camry & Sienna van are more sensitive to sludge buildup than Toyota engines of the past. For these sensitive engines, Toyota dealership technicians advise changing the dino oil every 3000-5000 miles or synthetic oil every 5000-7500 miles.
Neither Mobil or Amsoil has ever been willing to show us real world data that proves their synthetics subtantially reduce engine wear compared to dino oils. I mean show us the insides of two identical engines after 400,000 miles - one run on dino and the other run on synthetic.
The likely reason ALL the synthetic oil companies
hide this information from the public is because neither the dino nor the synthetic oil engine would be badly worn after 400,000 miles (Asian car and European car engines, that is). And that would
be an embarrassment.
Mobil did once test two Quad 4 Oldsmobile engines for 200,000 miles and said the dino engine had more wear, but never said how much more (possibly because it was still in good condition after 200,000 miles on dino oil).
What does inside the valve cover look like through the filler hole?
Member # 576
posted November 21, 2002 05:09 PM
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Does anyone here recommend Engine flush? I have a 2001 Corolla with 96K miles on it already. I switched to Mobil 1 at 18K, and have been using synthetics ever since. I here mix things about using flushes. Being it is a Toyota, and sludge is a problem, I'm wondering if it is necessary?? Thanks
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Posts: 45 | From: NJ | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged
Member # 576
posted November 21, 2002 05:09 PM
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Does anyone here recommend Engine flush? I have a 2001 Corolla with 96K miles on it already. I switched to Mobil 1 at 18K, and have been using synthetics ever since. I here mix things about using flushes. Being it is a Toyota, and sludge is a problem, I'm wondering if it is necessary?? Thanks
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Posts: 45 | From: NJ | Registered: Nov 2002 | IP: Logged
The '98 to '02 Corolla engines are all the same and none had any sludge problems.
The PVC system has always been highly
efficient on Corolla engines according to a Toyota technician and he feels that's the reason Corollas are immune to sludge.
Well almost immune - the technician says
owners who run dino oils for 10,000 - 15,000 miles or Amsoil synthetic for 25,000 miles WILL get sludge - sludge thick enough to hold a knife stuck in the bottom of the oil pan.
The PVC system has always been highly
efficient on Corolla engines according to a Toyota technician and he feels that's the reason Corollas are immune to sludge.
Well almost immune - the technician says
owners who run dino oils for 10,000 - 15,000 miles or Amsoil synthetic for 25,000 miles WILL get sludge - sludge thick enough to hold a knife stuck in the bottom of the oil pan.
Patman
Staff member
If both oils were changed at 3-5k, sure you won't see a difference. But try running dino oil at 10k intervals and synthetic at 10k, and the engine that used synthetic will last longer. That's the point of a synthetic, longer drain intervals. IMHO, if you run synthetic and change it at 3k, you're getting almost no benefits from it and might as well run conventional oil. I'm responsible for changing oil on 4 cars in my family, and in total they all do about 50k per year. Do I want to do 17 oil changes each year? No. I'd rather keep it down around 6-8.
[ November 25, 2002, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: Patman ]
PCV didn't have anything directly to due with the sludging of the toyota engines. The reasons are a multiplication of little things that makes a difference and why earlier models vers newer models sludged.
The main reason toyota engines will tear an oil up is because they are the only one that use gears to drive their ohc's where everyone else uses either a chain or belt. The chain has very little area that oil is exposed to thus not shearing the oil and the belt is not submerged in the oil. The gear system used by toyota is uniqe and the motor is one of the best on the market.
Here is a picture of a 12,000 mile toyota sludged engine(yes it was new). This was taken after they had attempted to clean it with a brand new win's engine flush machine for 45 min's.
Notice the two gears,like in a motorcylce engine that shares the transmission oil, This is where oil is squeezed and tends to wear down the VI's in standard conventional oils, causing the oil to drop in viscosity at approx 3-4,000 miles of use depending on the quality of the oil. Once the oil thinned down due to the vi's breaking down, then the broke down vi's would now become a contaminent and due to the lighter viscosity, the oil couldn't cool as well so the engine would begin running hotter which would heat the oil and cause the oil to cook which would tend to burn off and increase in viscosity or thicken.
In all the engines that had been sent through repair at this toyota dealership, not one pcv system was contaminated nor was one ever replaced or cleaned. All were reinstalled on the new/rebuilt engine.
Now, why all of a sudden around 97 did all this start happening? Because in 96 the oil industry changed their formulation from SH to SJ, lowering the antiwear additives's and also many changed from group I to group II base stock around this time which actually was a drop in base oil quality from the group one.(notice that m/c recommends SH rated motor oil but not any newer than that due to the antiwear additive levels) Add that on top of toyota trying to extend drain intervals from 3k to 5/7500 and many newer cars also started to pack the engines in tighter places putting more demand on the oil due to less air flow across the engine. Now let me point out at this time that anyone that changed their oil at 3k intervals, had no evidence of sludge whatsoever. The only sludged engines where ones that tried to follow the extended drain intervals.
Now due to all of this, using a good synth based oil such as m1,amsoil, and even schaeffers synth blend, You could and can extend your oil drains out. BUT, I advise anyone doing this go no farther than 5k drains then do an oil analysis to see how the condition of the oil is holding up. From that information, increase the drain intervals to the 7500, at that point, if the analysis shows good, then you'll be alright. What many do not realize,(this is why amsoil and many other companies don't give recommendations), is that due to all the different types of driving conditions that exists, there is no way to determine if you're safe at the extended drain with out taking the time to establish this with oil analysis. The cost of this is very reasonable and for the investment of an $20-$40,000 piece of equipment, you'd think this is not a big investment for the insurance of engine reliability on that investment.
To: BOBISTHEOILGUY I've followed your excellent site for several months now. But I've been under the impression that Group II base oil was better than Group I. Could you tell us why you feel going to Group II oils with the SJ change was a step back?
Thank you.
pmt
Thank you.
pmt
Buster,
The Series 2000 formulations have better detergency than the regular Amsoil 5w-30/10w-30. I suspect this is due to a higher ester content in the basestock blend. So I think the Amsoil 0w-30 will outperform Mobil 1, 0w-30 in this regard if you run drain intervals >7500 miles. Of all the supersyn formulations, I have been the least impressed with their 0w-30. The 5w-30 and 10w-30 have both shown consistently good oil analysis results. I'd use the M1, 5w-30 if you decide to go that route ....
If you are running "normal" change intervals, Mobil 1 does an outstanding job of keeping the engine nice and clean. It is the only other oil I've tried that compares to Amsoil in this respect, although I'm sure the other PAO/Ester formulations like Redline or Lubemoly would be great also.
TooSlick
The Series 2000 formulations have better detergency than the regular Amsoil 5w-30/10w-30. I suspect this is due to a higher ester content in the basestock blend. So I think the Amsoil 0w-30 will outperform Mobil 1, 0w-30 in this regard if you run drain intervals >7500 miles. Of all the supersyn formulations, I have been the least impressed with their 0w-30. The 5w-30 and 10w-30 have both shown consistently good oil analysis results. I'd use the M1, 5w-30 if you decide to go that route ....
If you are running "normal" change intervals, Mobil 1 does an outstanding job of keeping the engine nice and clean. It is the only other oil I've tried that compares to Amsoil in this respect, although I'm sure the other PAO/Ester formulations like Redline or Lubemoly would be great also.
TooSlick
MolaKule
Staff member
FWIW,
The most sludge resistant oils would be those with the better (HD) detergent/dispersant packages such as:
Delvac 1,
Amsoil AME 15W40
Schaeffer's #700
Delvac 1300
Delo
Rotella T
The most sludge resistant oils would be those with the better (HD) detergent/dispersant packages such as:
Delvac 1,
Amsoil AME 15W40
Schaeffer's #700
Delvac 1300
Delo
Rotella T
Well, Let me show how that theory is bunk.. Have you ever had a bad pcv system? care to explain how emissions of any sort can shear the viscosity of any oil in 3,000 miles from a 30wt down to a 20wt and inside 12,000 miles actually have sludged an engine so bad it was smoking and burning oil? Aint gonna happen. No way is any emissions gonna make an oil degrade from 30 to 20 wt in 3,000 miles.
Trust me, This insider info you have, has no idea. I started working hand in hand with toyota when this all starting hitting the fan. One reason why I have a first hand picture of this. In all the testing we did, as stated before, not one pcv system failed and in fact they were re installed. The engine design basicly hasn't changed but the oils did. This is why anyone trying to extend the drains were running into problems while the others at 3k drains had none. The oil was at a high 20 or low 30wt at 3k and was just at the point of producing high oxidation levels developing sludge. The things I described to you before is mine and the head ase master mechanics opinion here in jacksonville. I can also say that toyota engines are excellent, the company in my opinion is a class act and show great interest in problems and ideas.
That's why they sent me a personal letter and a nice little item of appreciation for my insight from coporate toyota in Ca. BTW, this is why the the effects of oil shearing page was designed to help expain why this was happening. Also note that oils with less VI additives(synth's) hold up better than those that rely on vi additives therefore the difference in drain intervals.
"changing dino oil every 3000-5000 or synthetic oil every 5000-7500 eliminates all
concern about sludge in all Toyota engines" Actually going past 3k with dino is pushing it in these engines. 5k no problem with synth, but anything above that should use oil analysis to establish if the oil is capable of holding up under your personal conditions and demands which if it does then good. It is not impossible to establish 7500 mile drains with these motors, but if you're into gambling 6k for an engine, go ahead and push any oil to 7500 miles with out checking it, you maybe one of the lucky ones. BTW, Castrol syntec is considered a synth, think it can go the distance since it is classified as a full synth??
PMT, read this link and maybe it'll give you a better understanding on that.
Oil Basics
[ November 25, 2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: BOBISTHEOILGUY ]
Forgot to mention, difference betwen most of these engines is several things... All of which reduce oil shearing...
1- some of these engines have 5-7qt capacity of oil thus it takes longer for the same oil to circulate and shear down.
2- average air flow in the engine compartment is less in most of these engines. This is also why in the vans, the back O2 sensor goes bad as a common problem unlike the front one that doesn't because it has sufficent air flow.
3, Also, you'll notice that one of their fixes for this is a wider screen pickup on the new oil pump unlike the older ones. Personally don't think that's gonna help but now with the newer gf-3 oils, there shouldn't be near the problem as before.
1- some of these engines have 5-7qt capacity of oil thus it takes longer for the same oil to circulate and shear down.
2- average air flow in the engine compartment is less in most of these engines. This is also why in the vans, the back O2 sensor goes bad as a common problem unlike the front one that doesn't because it has sufficent air flow.
3, Also, you'll notice that one of their fixes for this is a wider screen pickup on the new oil pump unlike the older ones. Personally don't think that's gonna help but now with the newer gf-3 oils, there shouldn't be near the problem as before.
Group II a drop in base quality from group I? I am confused. Can you explain? It sounds like Schaeffer's is now using group II according to TD sheets?
Ok, here's how I understand it,...
First, the group rating is not a rating of better or worse oil. Each application has it's merits and rated into groups.
The difference in the group I vers the group II is normal group I has .03 sulfur. Also Group I has a natural antioxidant which group II doesn't.
Group II has a >90% sat's, and
In automotive application the group I with the natural antioxidants are preferred which if you get a better than >90%sat's then you have what Schaeffers uses in most of their oils, a group I with better than >90% not =or less than.
The natural antioxidants help the oil to go on further drain intervals without having to load up on detergents and tbn levels.
In some instances, a group II would be more appropriate as to meet the volitity levels required our 5w30 is a groupII with the PAO.(that is the only oil motor oil we have using the group II.
Bob-- First let me say that I realize that Schaeffer's has better specs. than most off the shelf dino. oils whether group I or group II.
From what I understand Mobil Drive Clean is group I. The specs. are at the bottom end of most dino oils but it's "Drive Clean" moniker actually means something-- that it has higher detergency and will keep engines cleaner than the typical group II oil. I know that this is a simplification, but am I right in assuming that Mobil trades things such as flash point and VI for natural detergency?
Unfortunately, I'm basing this on a spreadsheet that I keep at work, so this comparison is from memory.
From what I understand Mobil Drive Clean is group I. The specs. are at the bottom end of most dino oils but it's "Drive Clean" moniker actually means something-- that it has higher detergency and will keep engines cleaner than the typical group II oil. I know that this is a simplification, but am I right in assuming that Mobil trades things such as flash point and VI for natural detergency?
Unfortunately, I'm basing this on a spreadsheet that I keep at work, so this comparison is from memory.
Honestly I have not kept up with mobils drive clean. I can say that as a group I, it would have a more natural antioxidant and inherently resist oxidation better. Now, question is, 90%? is the VI somewhere between 80-120. All of these things will vary from one type of base stock to another. But, of course, there's more to it as we all know that we are just looking at one aspect of hydrodynamic properties but when it comes down to last line of defense, what type of barrier additives are used, as well as level of detergency and other important aspects in a good oil.
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