Moly Separation ?

[darkdan]

Well it is an internal AMSOIL publication.

More of a way to get dealers to slam competition instead of AMSOIL doing it directly.

Plus, it is on the PERSONAL testimonies page. Granted there is no disclaimer like on the special features of the dvd saying these interviews in no way reflect the companies opinions.

 

[salesrep]

Darkdan

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Granted there is no disclaimer like on the special features of the dvd saying these interviews in no way reflect the companies opinions.

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No. They just print it opposite the Presidents Message.

My favorite part is where the truck owner (tribiologist he) states that he had HEARD some claims from nascar and nhra.

Pablo.

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more of a "we'll print anything" in these testimonials.

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While reputable Amsoil reps defend their product and the company when it comes to the "bad" reps who are uninformed. THIS is one of the reasons why.

 

[Pablo]

What can I say? I'm not on the editorial board.

Please though - rather than hammering away - simply ask for the facts. When did this happen? Did anyone analyze the residue? etc etc

 

[XS650]

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Originally posted by Pablo:
What can I say? I'm not on the editorial board.

Please though - rather than hammering away - simply ask for the facts. When did this happen? Did anyone analyze the residue? etc etc

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I thought it was pretty clear that it happened in the latest edition

It's a sleazy trick so Amsoil has plausible deniability.

 

[buster]

This is the type of thing that turns people away from Amsoil. It's a shame too bc they make some very good oils. I've heard one too many lies from Amsoil dealers and Amsoil HQ. It's becomming more and more like SCAMSOIL.

 

[Pablo]

Buster - THAT was totally uncalled for.

Here's what I wrote:

There is something printed in the Aug 05 Action News that needs either clarification with facts or a simple retraction.

It has to do with the testimonial by the trucker/lawn mower/mini chopper racer, Patrick Askins, who was a former Royal Purple user. Some fairly strong assertions are made about "moly separation" and NASCAR and NHRA and the "oil coming apart". I can be infered the dealer, Charles Almond, gave him this information. If the oils in question had an issue then some factual information must be on hand to back up these claims. When did this happen? How? Whas there an analysis of the phases? The precipitate? What was NASCAR's role?

I'm not sure if the legal team reviewed this or if you will hear anything from Royal Purple, but after taking heat all day (8/15/05) there seems at least to be a cheezy feeling about this type of advertising. I think if we at Amsoil are about quality, then we need to have quality products and adverstising, not rely on the possible negatives of the competition.

Thanks,

Paul Seminara

 

[buster]

Pablo I do appreciate your honesty. My intentions weren't to bash Amsoil, but to find out exactly what Moly Separation is. Royal Purple addressed a simlar customer complaint who was told by Amsoil Tech Service that Moly can come out of suspension. Someone posted it awhile back on another auto forum. These statments are very misleading and flat out wrong. Your letter was right on the money and maybe they will address it. Remember, it's not the product that hurts Amsoil, it's the marketing. This below is not what I was referring to, but something I did come across.

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Royal Purple Info



As you may know, RP is big in racing circles. The chemistry they use is something we choose not to use. One of our big selling points is extended drain intervals. Some additive chemicals can cause adverse conditions when used for long periods.

Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Moly in their oil. Moly is a solid, specifically banned by Cummins, due to excessive valve train wear.

Moly (Molybdenum Disulfide) is a processed mineral that is similar in appearance to graphite. Moly has good lubricating properties when used either by itself (in dry power form or as an additive to oil or other lubricants). Particles of the Moly can come out of suspension and agglomerate. This can actually clog oil filters or oil lines and the rest normally settles in the bottom of the oil pan. This seems to be more likely when using extended drain intervals. The only test we ran on RP involved their 20W50 Racing oil versus our AMSOIL Series 2000 Synthetic 20W50 Racing Oil (TRO). We ran two 4 ball wear tests with different parameters, a spectrographic baseline, FTIR scan and volatility tests. The Royal Purple showed a significantly high volatility rate with a 12.51% boil off rate. This compares to TRO with a 4.47% volatility rating. Wear scars were also smaller with the TRO. For example the TRO left a .41mm scar and the RP oil left a .66mm scar. There was also a surprising difference in the viscosity index. The RP has a VI of 129 versus 155 for the TRO. The higher the VI, the better the viscosity stays in place at high temperatures.

This infomation was profided by AMSOIL Tech Department. They had an independent lab test Royal Purple against AMSOIL. The results are posted above. They have found Moly in Royal Purple. As stated above, this can have negitive effects on your engine.

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**The above is what Royal Purple responded too. I can't find it but what they said was that their numbers showed entirely different and that Amsoil was way behind the times if they weren't aware of soluable Moly, which to this day they don't acknowledge.

[ August 15, 2005, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Pablo]

No answer yet.

Buster - that statement was at least 5-7 years ago. People were using "solid" moly forms back then, and before that Cummins did "ban" it. That was the past.

 

[TooSlick]

This is the typical reaction of moly and Zinc/Phosphorus compounds:

MoDTC + ZnDTP + heat/pressure yields MoS2 on the metallic surface.

This happens with Ferrous material for sure and may also occur with other materials. The sulphur is highly reactive with the surface and you get a secondary layer of moly on top of this. This significantly lowers the coefficient of friction of the opposing surfaces - a cam lobe rubbing against the top of a lifter, for example.

The only concern I have about this chemistry has to do with the amount of "free" MoS2 in solution. Too much of this will combine with water and oxygen to form organic acids, which deplete the TBN more rapidly. I suspect this is why the long drain European lubricants use a fairly low level of MoDTC, if they use it at all. You'll note the GC, 0w-30 does not use this chemistry and other long drain lubes use sulphur/phosphorus free, borate esters for friction modification, like "VANLUBE 289".

 

[buster]

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Thank you Molacule. The "old stuff" really gets irritating!!!

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It does get irritating, and confusing, which is the reason I questioned why Amsoil brought it up. It's old info.

Ok, this thread is pointless now as we know that Moly separation is NOTHING. Case closed. Next....

[ August 16, 2005, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[salesrep]

Too slick

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but I'd be willing to bet there are still blenders using the much less expensive MoS2 rather than the oil soluble

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[TooSlick]

For the record... Schaeffers and other reputable companies use the more expensive MoDTC in reasonable amounts. I've never seen ANY issues with those properly formulated lubricants...

I was referring to some of the "off brands" that still use colloidial suspensions of solid additives, ie MoS2, PTFE, Graphite, etc....

 

[TooSlick]

Does anyone know for a fact what particular chemical form of moly different formulations are using??? I certainly don't, but I'd be willing to bet there are still blenders using the much less expensive MoS2 rather than the oil soluble, "MolyVan 855" (MoDTC), or similar product.

If you see solid particles settle out of solution from a bottle that sits around for several months, I'd say it's most likely MoS2, which is a colliodal suspension.

Finally, the use of racing fuels containing alcohols may also cause issues with particular additive chemistries. So you'd have to know the particulars of the application, to understand what this moly separation is all about....

 

[MolaKule]

Many heated discussions get started because of misinformation.

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Royal Purple uses a different chemistry than most. They are one of only a handful of marketers using Moly in their oil. Moly is a solid, specifically banned by Cummins, due to excessive valve train wear.

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It was not the solid or disulfide powder moly that was in question by Cummins, but rather the Molybdenum dithiophosphates.

See this post by Islander:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000493

One of the problems I have seen with Amsoil is they continue to refer back to the solid moly question and never address the benefits of well formulated soluble moly formulations, which apparently they are now using in some engine oil formulations.

My hats off to Pablo for attempting to get an answer to those comments made in the Amsoil magazine.


I have a recommendation:

When anyone spots a post that has old information in it, report it to the moderators for consideration such as locking or deletion.

I see so much old info being posted these days that is being rehashed as something new, that it is really becoming irritating.

And so many posters are just too lazy to educate themselves and do a search and see if it has been discussed before.

 

[Pablo]

Thank you Molacule. The "old stuff" really gets irritating!!!

 

[Pablo]

I think most (engine oil) MoS2 is found in consumer additives, not prepackaged motor oil these days.

 

[Pablo]

FEEDBACK RECEIVED!

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Paul,
I recently received your email regarding the Dealers In Action story in the August Action News. I wanted to contact you to help ease your concerns on this matter.
After running two races the customer in the story took the oil pan off his racing lawn mower and discovered a heavy, thick coating of black and purple stuff that would not wash off. It was then discovered that the same conditions existed in two other racing mowers. The customer got in touch with the president of the oil company in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He told the customer that he had heard reports of this happening in NASCAR and NHRA, and that it won't hurt his engines. He told the customer that it was moly separation.

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[buster]

Thanks Pablo for following up. It's a vague, 3rd party remark, but one that Amsoil has stated themselves. I was told by Amsoil's tech service about 1 year ago that Moly was bad for engines. Lets just drop the subject. I was curious if Amsoil knew something others didn't or this was something new.

 

[Bio-T]

I sent Amsoil an email the same day Paul did. I have not received a response yet.

They probably sent mine to the legal dept. for action.

 

[Pablo]

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Wow - fairly recent. I wonder if it's because the of the air-cooled lawnmowers. It sounds a lot more like sludge than moly separation!

Paul

Paul,
Yes, I believe he said this all happened in early 2004.
T
-----Original Message-----
From: Seminara, Paul
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 12:40 PM
To: T
Subject: RE: AMSOIL Feedback


T,

Thanks for the feedback. It seems rather vague - is there an approximate timeframe when this occurred?

Paul

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