So When I started talking to some Toyota folks that sell parts on line , I was told I should go share a greasy sandwich with a guy named "Herb"
So I found Herb,
On a Tundra Forum,
heres a good post from him,
Herb Herb is offline
Junior Member
My Garage
N/A
My Details
Last Online: 02-02-2005 11:46 PM
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 148
Rep Power: 9
Herb is on a distinguished road.
Herb's Photo Albums
Default
Filhiol:
It sounds to me like we were both crawling around under a truck doing the same thing in the same way and getting much the same results. I had to smile, albeit grimly, when I read your post.
When I first saw the grease fittings on the U-joints under this truck, the first I'd seen in years on any car or light truck, I greeted this with great joy...until I looked at the shop manual and discovered a very clever money pit dug for us by Toyota.
It seems that if the axial play in the double cardan joint in the rear driveshaft exceeds 0 inches then we get to replace the entire driveshaft. This type of joint is most certainly rebuildable if the manufacturer will release the rebuild kit. Now...we may not be able to agree on anything else, but I think we can all agree that 0 inches is real close to being NOTHING...and if we wind with axial play that amounts to SOMETHING that exceeds NOTHING Toyota and Koyo will be laughing all the way to the bank.
The U-joints we see on the front drive shaft, a Spicer unit, and on both ends of the rear driveshaft, a Koyo unit, are called single Cardan joints. A double Cardan joint is nothing more than 2 single joints installed in close proximity in a common yoke with a centering device between the two.
According to my 02 owner's manual, all of these U-joints are to be lubricated using a No. 2 Lithium complex grease. The same grease containing Moly is to be used in the double Cardan joint.
We have to realize that this grease specification is largely meaningless. No two different brands or types of No. 2 LC grease are necessarily the same in terms of their ability to provide adequate lubrication at a given temperature and under a given load.
So what to do? I got ahold of a Spicer recommendation for the grease to be used in Spicer U-joints. Spicer recommends a No. 2 Lithium complex Extreme Pressure grease having an operating temperature range of -10F to 325F and a Timken OK Load of at least 50 pounds. In reviewing product data sheets for quite a number of greases, I was surprised by just how many No. 2 Lithium complex greases can't meet this spec.. And that includes everything I've found to date at WalMart and various auto parts stores.
Based on what I've seen in the various specs. I've also decided that I want a grease that has a dropping point of at least 500F, a Weld Point of 400 kilograms, and a base oil that exhibits a kinematic viscosity of about 20 (SUS 100) at 212F.
To date, the only grease I can find that will meet these specification requirements would appear to be Amsoil No. 2 Lithium synthetic. A relatively new Quaker State full synthetic called Synchron Ultra Premium EP grease also looks pretty good as does a Valvoline petroleum base grease that meets GM specs.
There may be others but if so I haven't found them.
I don't use Moly grease in universal joints and here's why:
1. George is right in what he had to say with the possible exception that until I see it in print I can't accept the idea that Moly is harder than bearing steel that is typically a Rockwell C60 hardness. I would like to see some proof of this.
2. A shop foreman at a John Deere dealership told me not to use Moly grease in U-joints because he has seen the results.
3. The lube tech at the local Toyota dealer told me not to use Moly grease and the dealer doesn't use it either. They use Valvoline grease that meets GM specs.
4. The back of a tube of John Deere grease containing 3% Moly (same % Moly as Amsoil) I see the following notation
"Not Recommended For Use in High Speed Bearings". That would include wheel bearings and universal joints (needle bearings) operating at upwards of 2,400 rpm or higher at times.
5. And because the sole source for a new driveshaft, who will not release rebuild kits for the double Cardan joint, recommends Moly grease. These are the same folks that tell us in their advertising literature that we should buy their oil filter because it has an internal pressure relief valve and then slip us a replacement filter that doesn't have one.
In 1999, Toyota issued TSB Dl001-99, Propeller Shaft Joint Grease. If I'm reading this correctly, Toyota still calls for a No. 2 lithium complex grease (makes no mention of extreme pressure grease) containing Moly in the double Cardan joint. The quality of grease to be used in all other U-joints appears to have been downgraded to nothing more than multipurpose grease which can be of incredibly low quality, based on what I've found.
If anyone would like to see what Toyota is recommending for use in OUR U-joints, take a look at Amsoil.com and look up the specs. for NLGI GC-LB.
This has been a rather tough and confusing investigation because of all the claims and counter claims that aren't necessarily supported by good numbers or, in some cases, any numbers. In addition, I've discovered that shops engaged in rebuilding driveshafts don't know anything about grease and those who sell grease don't seem to know very much about driveshafts.
Thus it falls to all of us to put the pieces of the puzzle together as best we can and do what our insides tells us to do.
A word about U-joints. The last time I saw grease fittings on automotive drive shafts was back in the 1950s. Since that time all of the OE joints installed on my cars and trucks have been permanently sealed, lubed-for-life units. My experience may not be typical, but I usually get 100K miles of service out of one of these joints. These joints are generally of higher quality and have much better seals than their counterparts that are fitted with grease fittings. That might partially explain the good service.
I have no idea what Ford is doing now but back in 1986 they were using a 3% moly grease for almost everything including sealed U-joints. The units in my 86 truck went 100K miles before I had them changed. Ford may still be using a moly grease because Valvoline still sells a 3% moly grease that meets Ford specs, but it won't meet Gm specs which are more stringent.
If Moly grease is so bad, how is it that it works so well in a sealed U-joint?
I don't think an initial fill with a good quality 3% moly grease hurts anything. What I don't want to do is continue pumping more and more grease containing a solid lubricant into a precision needle bearing because of the tendency for the solid lubricant to collect and prevent the needles from rolling. That's my thought on this....and I could be wrong but I don't think I am.
A Word of Caution About Mixing Greases: Don't mix greases that contain different thickener packages. There are sodium, calcium, lithium, aluminum, and Polyurea complex greases.
There is one other but the correct term escapes me at the moment.
These must be viewed as being incompatible when mixed together in a bearing until the operating history proves otherwise. I know of no way to determine if two greases are compatible by virtue of a test procedure. The problem begins when two different thickener packages react chemically and change the characteristics of the mix to something unacceptable. It isn't all that uncommon for the oil to separate from the grease and run out of the joint or bearing. So when switching from a lithium complex to an aluminum complex grease, for example, the U-joints or bearings should be cleaned out before the different type of grease is applied.
I'm not about to suggest that my way is right and everyone else is wrong. We all have a reason for what we do and we all have to roll the dice and take our chances. Until I have clear and convincing evidence that I'm wrong, I don't intend to use Moly grease in these expensive U-joints.
Herb
Reply With Quote
Herb
View Public Profile
Find all posts by Herb
So as you can see Herb dont think the "Moly option is the way to go,
Now Carl, My thoughts on it is that it not really going to matter most grease only have a small precentage of "Moly"
Less then 5%
But Herb makes some good points,,,
In the Darkness where Rix lives guys like Herb, are the but of Jokes,
I wondered what this Joke meant,,, Sharing a greasy sandwich,,,
With "Herb"
"3. The lube tech at the local Toyota dealer told me not to use Moly grease and the dealer doesn't use it either. They use Valvoline grease that meets GM specs."
This is what I was told at my local dealer as well,
"Bulk Valvoline grease no moly"
So Moly ahh I dont know maybe no moly is better after talking with "Herb"
But again small precentage, and Rix the Toyota tech says its OKAY,,,
