Moly in oil formulation revisited-Pennzoil

[dragboat]

In the past Moly Disulphates and Moly Disulphides have been discussed and if I remember correctly one or both are not really all that safe for extendeded periods of use. So,in a recent oil analysis of the Pennzoil 10/30 Purebase moly was detected. I called Pennzoil this morning and sure enough they have added it to the formulation but would NOT tell me what type moly but DID recommend 3k drain intervals. Well this car is hiway only commuter and has the ability to go well beyond 3k drain periods. I am not looking for extended drains but don't want to be under the car every 3 k if you know what I mean.5-7k will do fine So even though the analysis looked good,I am changing brands because of the unknown moly and the possible repercussions from long term use of some of these types. Yes,I could go to the MSDS to see if it was listed,but even if it was I don't know the difference in the two at hand. The Shaeffers oil uses a known "friendly" moly so should I use one of these,need some feed back from you guys,the 2002 car still has less than 7k on it,,nothing has gone wrong yet and seals should not be a isue as the car is still new Mobile Supersyn ? Shaeffers 10/30 Supreme? Mobile Drive Clean blend and change a bit earlier? It might be up to the task anyway "Possible add just a bit of the 132 Sheaffers moly to it? Cuss and discuus so to speak,I need an oil! The car is hiway driven 2002 Kia Rio Cinco "Wagon" hiway commuter only,parked on the weekends Swithing from the Pennzoil 10/30 to the plain 10/30 drive Clean "while waiting on the analysis" showed a gain in fuel milaege. The Pennzoil is 10.50 @ 100C VI on their data sheet and the Mobile "tested" at 12.2 @ 100C VI,this car seems to like thicker oil and wife noticed the engine seems quieter at idle Shoot me some thoughts would ya? Am I worried bout nuthin? Or is thse two moly's a real concern over a 250k period with extended drains?

 

[JonS]

Dragboat, What is wrong with Havoline? If not Havoline, i would use the Mobil blend, or even just the drive clean. I would like to use Shaeffers (sp) but it is not easy to get.

 

[Patman]

I think you are leaning towards the Schaeffer 10w30 there, so you might as well just go for that. You know with that oil you could probably go with 10k intervals, maybe more, with the type of driving that car sees.

 

[jjbula]

I guess the "space proven" pennzane can't hold a candle to Moly.

 

[williar]

With this engine I'd go with the Mobil Drive Clean as you've indicated it's performing well. Going to synthetic would be a waste of money unless you go for long drain intervals.

 

[TooSlick]

Dragboat, This is a very clean running engine ...I'd use the Mobil 1, 0w-40 (14.2 Cst @ 100C) and have Terry test it @ 6000-7000 miles. With mainly highway driving I would expect the oil to be in good shape at that point. As far as I can tell, the formulation chemistry of the 0w-40 is basically the same as the Mobil 1, 0w-30/5w-30/10w-30. Since it's thicker it also meets the minimum high temp/high shear requirements (>3.5 Cp @ 302F) for the ACEA A3/B4 specs....

 

[Johnny]

dragboat: Well, I knew when you moved from Oklahoma to The Jungles of Antartica, that I had lost you. In reference to the moly in the Pennzoil, I contacted the head of our technical department and here is his reply to me, word for word. "Moly is part of the additive package in the form of molybdenum dithiocarbamate and will show up in an oil analysis. However, it is not the conventional molydisulfide you're thinking of. Typical ppm is 80." This brand of oil has been serving my family very well for over 65 years and I will stick with it. If you are looking for an oil to last 10,000 between oil changes, then Pennzoil is not it. Neither is Mobil Drive Clean. If your looking for something to go an easy 5,000 miles, the Pennzoil is fine. Now if anyone knows about compairing oil, you do. So, if you want to compare Mobil Drive Clean to the Pennzoil you used, put in the same two additives that you added to the Pennzoil, or put Pennzoil (without additional additives) back in after you run your Mobil and drive it 5,000 miles and send the sample to Terry. If you do that, I will pay Terry the $25. I wish you well in whatever you decide to do with your KIA.

 

[The_Oz]

Johnny -> That's some good info! Thanks Dragboat -> I was not aware that Moly is not safe for extended use. How is this possible? Regards, Oz

 

[dragboat]

Oz,I did a search before posting but it had been hashed out pretty good. You used the word "Moly" only. That is like the guy that walks to the counter and say he wants lifters,there are Hydraulic Flat tappet,Solid Flat Tappet with a piddle valve,Solid Flat Tappet with a Edged Orifice,Hydraulic Roller,Solid Roller,Mushroom Flat Tappet and then there are "followers" any way went too far but you get the idea that there are different moly's,one or two types was spoke of as not engine friendly so to speak so I was not freaking but was not going to use the oil when Pennzoil would not tell me what kind they were using,which sorry Johnny but it was just plain a dumb conversation,the lady asked I how i found out it had moly,I told through a engine oil analysis,she said well they should not be giving out our formulations like that,I said well thats the way it goes especially with trend analysis.sooo, Quote: Moly is part of the additive package in the form of molybdenum dithiocarbamate and will show up in an oil analysis. However, it is not the conventional molydisulfide you're thinking of. Typical ppm is 80." Johnny that is a great relief! I like the oil and Terry saw no reason to change because the wear was nil,,the rest if "proprietory" he he, I got to use that term! Just razzin a bit but will you think about 4k miles? Deal? Then Terry will be able to estimate how much longer it would go Hey,where's those kits anyway? That was months ago The SL oil is actually MUCH better than I had previously thought it to be,the Moly was quite a surprise especially for the price of a 5 quart jug I am gonna find that thread if it takes my Son all night [ September 17, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Johnny: In reference to the moly in the Pennzoil, I contacted the head of our technical department and here is his reply to me, word for word. "Moly is part of the additive package in the form of molybdenum dithiocarbamate and will show up in an oil analysis. However, it is not the conventional molydisulfide you're thinking of. Typical ppm is 80."

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So does this form of moly (dithiocarbamate) do the same thing as the disulfide and disulfate? In other words, will it bond to metal and create a nice layer of extra protection? Or does it serve a totally different purpose alltogether? [ September 17, 2002, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Patman ]

 

[dragboat]

Patman,look at the MSDS of the 132,it is close but the 132 is superior because of the other component or chemical unless the Pennzoil Engineer left that part out of the discussion? But I think that the use of that belongs to Shaeffer only,correct me if I am wrong,I believe it to be patented Somewhat still on topic,I want that 10/30 Supreme in a bad way I have that data sheet memorized. No problem though,plenty of cars here,man I want to try the Supersyn as well,I will buy more cars! Patman buys funnels,I buy cars [ September 17, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[The_Oz]

quote:

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Originally posted by dragboat: Oz,I did a search before posting but it had been hashed out pretty good. You used the word "Moly" only. That is like the guy that walks to the counter and say he wants lifters,there are Hydraulic Flat tappet,Solid Flat Tappet with a piddle valve,Solid Flat Tappet with a Edged Orifice,Hydraulic Roller,Solid Roller,Mushroom Flat Tappet and then there are "followers" any way went too far but you get the idea that there are different moly's,one or two types was spoke of as not engine friendly so to speak so I was not freaking but was not going to use the oil when Pennzoil would not tell me what kind they were using,which sorry Johnny but it was just plain a dumb conversation,the lady asked I how i found out it had moly,I told through a engine oil analysis,she said well they should not be giving out our formulations like that,I said well thats the way it goes especially with trend analysis.sooo, I am gonna find that thread if it takes my Son all night

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Dragboat, My apologies, I was referring to disulphate and disulfide (sp?), as you have stated in your primary post. The only thing I remember about Moly is Bob mentioning that Redline could be using disulphate which may contribute to high levels of oxidation under analysis. And please, do enlighten me on the longevity of the Moly in question (disulphate and disulfide). Regards, Oz

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Red Line does not use that type. They use an organic soluble moly, that is all they say. Probably same or similar to what Schaeffer is using. The high oxidation are false readings due to the esters being used. They are meaningless.

 

[jjbula]

quote:

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Originally posted by dragboat: I was not freaking but was not going to use the oil when Pennzoil would not tell me what kind they were using,the lady asked I how i found out it had moly,I told through a engine oil analysis,she said well they should not be giving out our formulations like that

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Let me start by saying I think Pennzoil makes a very good product. But....the attitude of that lady is what I hate about the marketing of motor oil. Maybe I'm just not happy with American consumer marketing. I do not trust a product that has its formulation changed without notice. Not only that, but the company (at least this lady) has the opinion that we don't have the right to know what is in it. She is basically saying, "Trust us and don't even think about questioning what is in the product." What I am saying, "Hit the road and don't come back until you can respect your customer!" Now I feel better.

 

[csandste]

I've always had questions about Mobil's specs. Here is a three way comparison between SuperTech (old SJ formula), Pennzoil and Mobil. Doesn't Mobil finish last in this horse race or am I misunderstanding something. Does it use group I base stock that's naturally a higher cleaning ability hence the name? Isn't 392 an abnormally low flash? 10W30 SuperTech Pennzoil Mobil Visc. 40c 73.2 67.0 70.0 Visc 100c 11.0 10.5 10.4 Visc. Indx 140 160 134 Flash-F 410 430 392 Pour-F -29 -33 -33 Low Pumping-C -25 -30 x

 

[dragboat]

The_Oz, No need for a appology! I searched the entire forum,I think this might have been disussed on the old forum at this point,maybe someone that knows will step in and post. I do know it had somehing to do with the high milaege oils,and or Patman inquiries on moly . I just cannot find it. It was simalar to using one of those snake oil molys,possibly XR-1? Dunno. csandst, (Isn't 392 an abnormally low flash?) Not in my opinion. With the advent of cracked stocks and better VII's came better pour points,there comes a point that some are overkill imo as have raced 8 hour endurance events with flash points simalar,nary a problem it seemed at the time . I just brought back to the top a Citgo thread with a past from something George wrote about base stocks,please take a look,it will help explain to an extent imo jjbula, Bad thing is these type represent a probable good company. They are Humans and might just have had a bad day,does not let them off the hook,I have had some enjoyable conversations with Phillips,Conoco and others,never a good feeling after talking to Mobil,but not buying a good oil just because of how one is treated might be biting ones nose off to spite his face so to speak,now if there is a alternative oil that fits ones individual needs,thats the good part,email them,remind them of the converation and tell them how well your new choice of oil has worked for you and the numerous friends and countless dominoe effects of your experience with the new oil alternative you have chose and the loss of customers,tell it to their boss though Now don't waste his time please but if you want to talk to a Shaeffer representitive and truly are interested in purchasing the oil,call Bob,a truly enjoyable experience,without a bunch of hogwash! [ September 17, 2002, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[jjbula]

Dragboat, You're absolutely right. I would like to change marketing and the only way to do it is to vote with my dollar. The analysis database building up here will make an impression on the oil companies. Maybe it already has with all the Moly ending up in oil. If some additives need to stay secret, so be it. But I'll only trust it with my own or other's recent analysis. However, I don't want to do an analysis every oil change to make sure they didn't drop the Moly or reduce the Zinc or Calcium. Not to mention the Group I/II/IV/Ester ratios that I can't measure.

 

[dragboat]

Dang it! Everyone of you have good points,thts the problem. Another is have been waiting for that new Havoline Syn to show up. I have spoke with Terry,he has some very valid points and input I take into consideration as well. It has clean oil in it,the temp has dropped a bit,I have some time,,will watch for more input and make a decision soon. Tired of getting under the car and using the 85 Mercury as the car that gets the oil used to purge the Kia,poor old Merc! TooSlick,is the 15/50 Supersyn a completely different deal altogether than the other Supersyns? Do you have the VI @ 100C for the 10/30 and the 0/40 by chance? Or is it so stable that is why it is not on the data sheet? Thanks [ September 17, 2002, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[dragboat]

Well I did find some random notes on moly's,do not know the authors though MoS2 is the Disulphide MO (SO4) 2 is the Disulphate and was referred as not to friendly for extnded miles,by whom I don't know and then Molybedenum Thiocarbonate which is soluable but different than the Disulphide. I like the moly and the other ingredient that in in the Sheaffers products personally I still do not know what moly the Pennzoil purebase multi vis uses but am pretty sure the Long life oil uses the Disulphate per my notes Thanks for all the replies,I have a month to make a decision about the future oil used in the Kia.It seems to be harder on a oil than some other engine designs. And to me,that results in a different look on oils for it. It also is used different than any car previosly owned,again requiring a another look even though Pennzoil will remain in some of the cars we own and has done us well. [ September 21, 2002, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

 

[jjbula]

Johnny, (just so you don't think I'm busting too much on Pennzoil's product) If I was to go back to Dino oil, Pennzoil is near the top of the list. I guess the price we pay for a good product available nationwide is the dumbed down marketing that comes with it. Hopefully, Johnny will take our comments to marketing and let them know how we (or is it just me ) feel. BTW why do they want to keep the Moly a secret? Valvoline seems to have dropped the ball by taking the Moly out of Maxlife.